[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

@volounteer
Your gain staging is all wrong from what you describe and you may be looking for the wrong solution. This is what I would do…

Turn your power amps right down so nothing is coming out.
Select and switch on PAFL on the channel the mic is connected to.
With a reasonable level going into the mic (people who insist on whispering or won’t speak directly into it should never be given a mic!) set the gain so it’s generally around the top of the green. If the first couple of orange LEDs light occasionally that’s fine.
Now turn off PAFL and raise your main LR fader (assuming you’re coming directly out of there) to 0. You should now see the same level on the meters that you did when PAFL was on. This is what you wanted, and is how it should be, so now you can set your amps.
Slowly raise the input sensitivity on your power amps until you have a usable level without feedback – still with a reasonable signal going into the mic.
That’s it – you’re set, well for one channel anyway!

This is assuming you don’t have a crossover or anything in between the mixer and the amp of course.

Explanation:
Your amp probably has a max input of 4dBu. The max out on the SQ is 22dBu. So you need to lose around 18dB at the amp to match max levels which using this method we’re achieving with the amp sensitivity controls. If the amp/speakers are overpowered for the space then you’ll be lower than -18 on the amps. If they are underpowered then you will be reducing less and risk clipping at the amp/speaker if you do drive a signal close to max out of the SQ.

Hope that helps!

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

+1 from me.

My use case is for setting the max output level from the SQ to be suitable for the next device in the chain.

For example – the SQ max output is +22 dBu. We feed LR to a BSS FDS-334T. It’s max input is +20 dBu.
So having a trim on the output and setting that to -2 dB would mean the max levels of both devices are perfectly matched.
The wedge monitor amplifiers are fed directly from the SQ outputs but accept a much lower level, +4 dBu if I remember correctly so -18 dB trim would be perfect there.

The previous desk in this venue was a Yamaha LS9-32 which had trims on all outputs. Once these were set correctly (along with crossover gain and limiter settings) all problems with clipping down the chain disappeared and was a lot safer when in the hands of deps that didn’t know about the specific intricacies of our set up. With the SQ I’ve had to make a cheat sheet with max output levels detailed for FOH and wedges to avoid this and hope they read and understand it.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

Thanks Keith, that’s helpful.
Could you take Input Access in addition to the existing Mix Access as a feature suggestion for SQ4You / SQ Firmware? I’m sure if others think it will be useful they will add their +1s!

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

I’ve just read those and there are some interesting points.

If it was highest level (MAX of all assigned sources), which is what makes most sense in this scenario, then no buses or summing is required and it is an extremely simple and quick calculation for any processor/controller to do. I don’t see how that could ever be considered ‘wrong in regard to the real level’.

I’m sure they already have a max function or similar coded into their metering that they use to determine peak for the existing multipoint metering that they could reuse.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

I’m not sure about channel library or copy/paste but it is definitely available for reset.

With a channel selected hold down Reset and then move the Pan rotary (you may have to move it some way). It then toggles between hard left, dead centre and hard right depending on the direction of turn of the rotary – very useful!

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be any metering. Anything that controls/groups audio should have metering regardless of whether it’s a real or virtual path.
Other manufacturers do this by showing the highest level of any source assigned to the DCA group which makes perfect sense to me.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

Hi Steffen,

Thanks for the reply.
I don’t know actually, I can try over the weekend – no gigs due to lockdown in the UK but I will be going to the venue I’m resident at anyway!
If so, that could be a way of achieving what I want, but I would have to do that for every input I don’t want on every single mix that is allowed for SQ4You which could be time consuming and error prone as by that time I won’t have them on my surface anymore.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

I could be wrong but I think the previous replies may be overthinking this a little maybe?

From your description you are currently sending a talkback ‘channel’ to the aux mixes by using sends on fader to that bus. That will work, just like any other channel but is nothing to do with it being talkback! You don’t even need a channel strip for it.

The idea of talkback is to hit a key and the talkback mic is sent to all mixes that it is assigned to at unity. That is what the Assign keys do in the talkback section.
The settings tab allows you (among other things such as setting it’s gain and HPF) select which physical socket the talkback mic is connected to. The beauty of this is you don’t need to assign it to a channel strip as you will never need a fader or any other processing, unless you want to be able to mix it into FOH of course as an emergency address mic or something.
Then, hitting a soft key assigned to Talkback (Enable Talkback), which can be momentary or latching (see 10.2) your talkback mic will be in the assigned mixes.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

Yeah – I figured that out but thanks for the response. I used the slapback echo on Saturday on a 50’s/60’s show – it was superb!

What about the BBD?
I’m considering purchasing that add-on as I have a gig this weekend where that might be preferable to the standard delay, so it would be useful to know if that can be controlled by Global Tap Tempo before parting with cash!

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

Forget that – in some of the modes it wouldn’t make sense!

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

I didn’t actually get any clipping – just a few occasional red flashes from the layer buttons and the chromatic meter for Main.
Perhaps that was because I was a couple of dB below, or maybe it wouldn’t have clipped even if pushed more. Who knows!

It’s not a problem as I stated. I’ll just have to tell any other engineers using the desk to pay attention to gain staging throughout the mix (not just at ADC and DAC as is the normal nowadays) and the 18 dB above ‘0’ on the meters is headroom available overall across gain, compressor make up gain effect, faders (for post fade), DCA etc…

Thinking a bit more, having a DCA for all live channels and balancing the internal level by lowering that below unity and bringing up the Main Fader would fix the potential issue entirely as all post fader sends would be affected by the lowering of the DCA and the only concern would be Main/Pre Fader Aux final output levels not going above +18 (0 dbFS / +22 dBu) or the maximum level the crossover/amp/transmitter that follows can handle at its inputs which is entirely normal of course 🙂

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

I was going to ask about this myself after seeing the occasional flicking red light on my sends/mix layer this weekend.
Towards the very end it was quite a hot mix to be honest and not the normal, it was a mix I inherited part way through. Most instrument channels peaking at around +6 (-12 dBFS) with faders at unity, the vocals post compression peaking about 3dB higher and faders around +5 so I would estimate around -4 dBFS. Post fader sends to fx, and of course main, were starting to warn me of possible impending clipping which I believe happens at -3 dBFS so it was probably hitting that occasionaly.
I was surprised though as the Aux masters and Main fader were below unity so I expected to have the headroom available as I wouldn’t be clipping the D/A.
Having read the document that Nicola attached it makes sense, but means to avoid internal clipping I need to run gains lower (IEM users are gonna love that change during a performance) or lower all channel faders and bring up post fade send masters and main fader. A bit of a change in working from any other digital desk but manageable now I know.
I thought clipping (after A/D and so long as we don’t overdrive the D/A beyond 0 dBFS/+22 dBu) was a thing of the past in the digital age!
Not a complaint, and I take on board the reasoning – just an unexpected surprise.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

Mixing live some kind of more obvious warning when in Sends on Fader mode would be helpful.
There’s the tiny tab on the screen and the LR key is not lit/relevant mix key is lit but something that stands out would be better.
Anybody remember the ‘rude solo’ on old Makie desks or the ‘lit up like a Christmas tree’ on the LS9.
A fast red flash on the LR would be a good solution. It’s already there and can do red plus it’s always close to the action.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

+1
I like the idea of Stereo Width on Stereo buses too.

I often mix support acts -> intermission music -> headline act. It’s unacceptable to have a drop in audio which will happen if loading another show which is the currently the only way for me to switch between mono & stereo buses for different acts. Having stereo width on outputs (even with only 0% or 100%) would fix that as that would be at scene recall level.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

Hi Keith,

Thanks for the response 🙂

Not really, as it’s the return level I want to control but the send I want to mute. 2 different signals I know but they are related by the common FX Slot which is why I suggested as an FX Parameter. I also tend to balance fx levels separately for each song rather than as a group so DCA isn’t the way to go.

At the moment I’m working around it by having return levels for FX1-4 on Soft rotaries 1-4 but ignoring those keys, then FX Time for FX1-4 on Soft rotaries 5-8 with the keys set to Send mute and using those (I also have soft key 6 set to mute all FX returns too). This works but I’m burning all of my roataries to achieve it!

It’s a nice to have rather than an essential though and I’m happy as I am – but that’s what this board is for 😉

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