Player in Yamaha DM3 is super,

[TobiParticipant]

Of course you can Connect DM3 to Rio! Compare that with Prime!

[HughParticipant]

Tobi, My main point of contention is an SQ has a shared FPGA processing protocol that is capable of accommodating up to 48 high end up-grade I/Os while the DM3 does not. Many of us bought into the feature rich LS9 only to discover sub standard internal pre-amps. While subsequent Yamaha desks have improved the internal pres the CL line’s 24/48 I/Os have never been considered their strong point. As SteffenR has pointed out, Rivage offers a processing protocol similar to D-Live at a much higher price point than the D-Live, however at this point apparently it is not a fully scalable platform that can be shared.

Cudos to Yamaha for their development of a ultra small desk that the industry has needed for a long while: however their DM3 will not be in the discussion of discriminating detailed transparent capture protocols that the A&H Primes currently offer. If the truth is to be told, this is the A&H trump card: World class sonic quality at an affordable price point!
Hugh

[TobiParticipant]

And my Point ist, the Name dies Not Matter. Even the implementing technology does Not Matter, as Long as it works.

My Feeling is, you are an a&h fanboy, which is ok of course. I too Like my SQ. But maybe dont Close your eyes for other things.

And to be honest: its often the Case, when you try to Talk “technical”, its often technically wrong or at least Not accurate. See your Last Paragraph about capture protocols… What should that be???

Affordable price: OK.

[SteffenRParticipant]

In the end, we want a better Q-Drive for the whole range of consoles.
Maybe the new desks will improve things.

[BrianParticipant]

There is a very interesting factor that the excitement around the introduction of the DM3 has made absolutely apparent: My contention of a need in the market place for an 8 fader mini Avantis is spot on and undeniable.

The DM3 and a “mini Avantis” would be nothing alike – either in features or price. So your contention of a need in the market place for a 8 fader mini-Avantis (while not untrue) is certainly not confirmed by the launch (and potential success) of the DM3. The DM3 with Dante costs 2k while a “min Avantis” without Dante would likely cost upwards of 10k.

The pending launch of A&H CQ series (which seems to be a QU replacement) will be much closer to the feature set of the DM3. I only wish it had either an expansion slot or Dante built in. That’s a huge negative for the CQ series (although it should help keep the cost low).

[HughParticipant]

SteffenR, Apparently the DM3 does not offer stand alone USB multitrack recording: The Yamaha Steinberg soft ware for computer controlled DAW recording is required for multi-tracking. It is very important for all of us to be certain about our assertions pursuant to the advantages &/or limitations of the recording protocols the respective desks offer. Do you prefer a DM3 type of stereo only direct USB recording protocol, &/or are you convinced the DM3 optional external multi-tracking options are better than the SQ’s Waves/Dante tie line external recording protocols. Subject to the planned SQ5/DM3 A/B testing I will share any differences that we may perceive.

Tobi, I am not one bit apologetic for my 25 + year A&H experience. They have provided the very best sonic capture and processing capabilities of any brand that is in my investment comfort zone. Either you have at your disposal a DX168 and a Prime loaded DX32 or you do not. The specific needs of your clientele will determine whether or not you might benefit from the detailed transparency the 32bit 96K Primes offer. The bottom line is I work with world class performing talent and have deployed the Prime I/Os thru SQ tie lines and a Waves card for more than two years in my studio with great success. Yamaha does not offer an I/O comparable with A&H’s Primes in any of their desks. Any objective assessment will acknowledge the supreme importance of the front end capture and it’s corresponding A/D conversion. Your sensitivity pursuant to my repeated allusion to capture sonic quality speaks volumes!
Hugh

[SteffenRParticipant]

I highly prefer an easy-to-use and working solution, that enables hassle-free recordings.

I’m fine with stereo recordings in most cases, but the most important thing is, as already in the first post stated, that the solution can play nearly everything.
Wav, FLAC, MP3, M4A, Opus and Ogg.

That is what I want most.

I did some multi track recordings over the years, every recording that was initially made for a planned release wasn’t done with integrated solutions.
It was always done with a dedicated recording setup.

The Yamaha Steinberg soft ware for computer controlled DAW recording is required for multi-tracking.

Every multitrack DAW (software or hardware, doesn’t matter) that can use Dante as I/O is capable.

[SteffenRParticipant]

Yamaha does not offer an I/O comparable with A&H’s Primes in any of their desks.

They do. The Rivage I/O is a comparable solution. Or the Nuage I/O.

First desk with 96kHz introduced back in the early 2000?
Yamaha DM series. Don’t forget, the DM series is the oldest digital desk series available.
Remember DM-1000 and DM-2000. Allen & Heath did mostly analog consoles at this time.
Yamaha did clearly pioneer the success for digital mixers. Remember 01V and O2R.

And yes, there were some failures on the way, like the never forgotten M7CL and the hated LS9.

[peterzoetermeerParticipant]

I think I have loosened something here 🙂 but that is only good, if the consumer comes with wishes and those wishes have other equipment, they will certainly look into it! my hope and goal is then Allen & Heath, make a few updates! software is as much as possible 🙂 the points I would love!

1 The Q-drive tackles everything so that you can also just put a stitch with music tapes in it and it will just read it! without this in 48 khz must put, and or special folder,

2 overview in the screen, could be better. look at the DM3 so well organized! I really like that dark color combination 🙂

3 always that bang from the outputs when switching on and off! DM3 doesn’t have this either

4 One knob compressor and Eq would be great 🙂

I may have too many wishes 🙂 but you never know think they can make the sq series even more attractive in software so that it doesn’t fall behind the newer mixers!

[SteffenRParticipant]

I don’t know what you mean with falls behind newer mixers.

It’s just different.
There are workflow quirks on the Yamaha desks as well. And there ever was.
But we as technicians have to arrange with the technical differences that given products offer.

[HughParticipant]

SteffenR, the two of us may or may not be able to reconcile our thinking pursuant to the relative capability and corresponding market relevance of small footprint desks.
Whether or not Yamaha has I/Os comparable with A&H’s Primes is a debate centered around the specific performance of the Nuage JetPLL 32 bit DA converters offered more than 10 years ago. Apparently the Rivage I/Os are very similar with the addition of an on/off transformer emulation that has a third harmonic manipulation available called Silk. A thin case might be made for Yamaha I/O’s being comparable with the newer D-Live I/Os but certainly not by me. Given the rapid development in the audio digital revolution, there is nothing as cold as yesterdays hot technology. Therefore the question of comparable quality is certainly debatable. What is not debatable is the fact that A&H optimized their Prime I/Os to fully utilize the XCVI core, FPGA processing that is available in d-Live, Avantis as well as the entry level SQ line. Clearly this is not the case with the DM line or specifically the DM3.

Lets agree to stipulate neither of us can accurately predict a future Avantis price point. Eight Prime I/Os are currently $2,400. MSRP: an optional upgrade from std d-Live I/Os would require an additional investment. However there is no way ,IMO, 8 faders with 6 layers with a single Avantis large screen, 8 internal XLR ins and 8 outs would have a price point of $10,000. It is conceivable the addition of two DX168s, that would bring the active mini Avantis channel count up to 40 inputs, could reach the 10K level, however this is way, way beyond the DM3s capabilities either sonically or functionally.
Hugh

[BrianParticipant]

Hugh – obviously this is all speculation on our part, but I don’t think A&H is ever going to make an 8 fader Avantis console. They might make a 12 fader Avantis by basically cutting an Avantis in half because this would lower the R&D costs/time greatly and they would also reuse the many of the existing Avantis parts (like the fader banks and screens). However just because the control surface and number of screens are cut in half doesn’t mean the price will be cut in half. This is why I think a smaller Avantis would fall in the “near 10k” range (with Deep plugins). Certainly it would fall between 8-10k IMHO.

[TobiParticipant]

>> What is not debatable is the fact that A&H optimized their Prime I/Os to fully utilize the XCVI core, FPGA processing

That is very debatable because no one would do that. The development of frontend is nearly (not to say completly) independent of the processing technology behind it. It really does not matter if processing is calculated by FPGA or DSP based systems to develop a front end…

Best Regards.

[Dave MeadowcroftParticipant]

FWIW I agree totally Tobi.
The preamps turn an analog signal to digital. The core ‘only’ processes once digital, therefore it is totally agnostic to the preamp whether DX/GX, AR or Prime.

[HughParticipant]

Brian, You are probably correct about 12 instead of 8 faders as well as the economy of using existing fader banks and screen to build a half sized Avantis. However the SQ5 XCVI core could be the initial hardware choice that could have a larger core available to facilitate the possibilities of a boat load of ancillary options. On the other hand the A&H I/Os are configured in banks of 8 and it may be the the same with the SQ fader banks. In the event the SQ5’s fundamental lay out is used, I would not agree with your price point speculation. In all candor this is the small, high quality product that I have envisioned from the start.

I am in total agreement with the need for a much cleaner USB recording protocol even it turns out to be Stereo only like the DM3. All of my studio and live multi-tracking for My A/V sessions are external Digigrid/Waves projects thru tie lines from my SQ5 Prime Pres.
A single Avantis screen is very high on my list of wants however given the 6 layer extended management chore the large DM3 screen simplicity is probably not in the cards.
Other than the useless top fader bank of sub standard internal pres on my SQ5 I could get along quite well with the little SQ5 desk. The ability to have 8 world class internal I/Os will have a much bigger market potential than you may suspect. Read between the lines of some of the DM3 reviews to get a handle on what it is missing and that is precisely why I believe the mini Avantis could be very complementary to the existing A&H line.
Hugh

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