[Joe HinkensParticipant]

I had thought about replying to this yesterday but felt it was so complicated and so many areas to consider I was not sure. I agree with Chris. Sounds to me like you have a gain structure problem overall. You should be able to tweak down the levels on the boards and bring the amps up on the speakers a little more and correct that. I am assuming there is nothing else in between the board and the powered speakers?

With regard to overall sound quality you just have to get out there in front and hear for yourself. I never take the word of anyone unless I really trust their knowledge. Surely in a sound check you can drop out and see how it sounds. Or get someone who is a musician or sound engineer you trust. You can’t judge it on stage on the backside of the cabinets. As for the phase thing I am with Chris too. Something weird there. Make sure all of you balanced cables are wired the same and everything is the same. Lines to speakers etc. I have seen one cable out of phase make things sound out.

Thanks GC,
I think you’re spot on with the soundcheck suggestion. I always get out front with some of our previously recorded material. As I mentioned in my previous post, when I auditioned the mix during our soundcheck last night, it sounded great.
I would like to check the cables to be sure they’re all OK. I’m not certain exactly how to do this. Is it simply checking to be sure Pin 1 to Pin 1, Pin 2 to Pin 2, etc? Just a simple cable tester?

You have a pretty complicated setup. There is a lot of room for problems if everything is not happy.

Yea, sometimes I’m wondering if I’m making more work than necessary. The drum sound we get is pretty awesome. Superior Drummer software really let’s us dial things in where the drums sound completely real, maybe better. But now I’m wondering if the modern drum modules available (Roland, D-Drum, 2 Box) might equal the Superior Drummer sound quality, without all the hassle of added software and hardware components.
Thanks,
Joe

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

Thanks for the note Chris.

Red is bad, but if it’s not audible it it’s not really a problem. What sort of input levels do you have coming into all your other channels? Do you run the drums extremely loud in the mix?

I try and keep the meters around 0dB, but I’ll admit the 2 drum channels were well above that typically around 6dB. For last nights gig, I reduced the gain by 2dB on every input channel so theoretically the overall mix would stay the same. Then I just bumped the main fader up a tad. This seemed to work fine and I only saw the meters hit the red on a couple of occasions.

What vocals mics do you use and how much gain do have set on them?

We’re using all Audix OM5’s except for the lead singer who’s running a Sennheiser 935. I just checked and we’re running 16dB – 18dB gain on all the mics.

If you can’t get stuff loud enough without running into clipping it would suggest a lack of gain in your PA. How much headroom have you got left in the PA after the GLD clips? If you can turn the PA up and turn the GLD down that should take care of the problem. You could also put a limiter on the drum channels. Turn the input gain down 6dB, set a limiter at -6dBFS shortest attack and release, highest ratio, and put 5dB of output gain on it. It won’t clip but will affect the sound.

I’m not quite following you on setting the limiter Chris. You suggested ‘Turn the input gain down 6dB, set a limiter at -6dBFS”. I’m assuming the -6dBFS would be the threshold setting. Is that right?

Clipping the main outs could certainly make it sound “less articulate”, but it’s unlikely to be the issue if it’s only “tickling the red when the snare is hit”. Stupid suggestion, but if something was “drifting in and out of phase” I’d be having a look at the FX rack. 🙂

It’s interesting that you mentioned the FX Chris. Saturday, I auditioned the recording from our Friday gig and I found the FX on the vocals to be a bit much so I backed them off. But I also noticed I had the ‘2 Tap Delay’ selected for the delay on vocals. I hit the ‘link’ button to revert to a single delay and that cleaned it up a lot. When we got to the gig on Saturday night, I played back our Friday recording with the few tweaks I had made. Then I made a couple adjustments on the GEQ. A very minor boost at 2.4GHz really made things sparkle nicely. So I’m not really sure what those reports were all about on Friday night, but Saturday night we got nothing but positive comments and many of the patrons were blown away by the excellent sound quality.

But just to make sure I don’t hit the red, I’m going to boost the gain on the PA speakers. Presently the subs are set and noon, and the tops about 1 o’clock so I’ve got lots of headroom left there. Many thanks for your input.

Do you record the shows?

Chris

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

Thanks guys. The second cable isn’t that big of a deal, so I’ll run with that.

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

That’s pretty impressive customer service. Hopefully you’ll have it all sorted shortly.

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by GCumbee

Joe:

This is NOT the CD I referred to although it should prove useful. The disc I have is 1/3oct filtered noise not tones. As I said, you have to be careful with tones. They will react completely different in a room depending on the acoustics especially at low freqs..

Good luck,

GLD 80
AR2412

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OK. Thanks for the heads up George.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, GLD AR84, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by GCumbee

Joe: As for True RTA. I understand what you are saying but it is a get what you pay for solution. I would pay for the real thing if I felt it would make THAT much of a difference. Most guys I see and myself don’t go to overboard on delays anyway FWIW.

As for the disc, it is not commercially available to my knowledge. They just produced it for their own use. I was offered a copy since I am also a commercial studio owner in Nashville. I have my facility leased out now. One of the 2 helped me do some voicing a few years ago. I got much better results than just broadband noise. I just did an auditorium that I did an installed last week. I thought it was OK with some minor tweaking but then after I went through the process with the disc and reset it I was amazed as was everyone else how much better it sounded. Clearer, cleaner, better fidelity.

GLD 80
AR2412

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Thanks George,
That’s really interesting and you’ve got my curiosity peaked. I see Chris just put up a link to the CD which I’m downloading now. My connection speed is really bad this evening so it’s going to take a while to download. I glanced at the ‘How to’ doc attached to the CD. Lots to study there. I’m eager to dive in. Thanks very much for putting that up Chris.
I know I’ll have a ton of questions. Thanks for all your help.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, GLD AR84, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by TJCornish

quote:

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Originally posted by GCumbee

Joe:

Here is an option. Kind of like SMAART only much cheaper. 1 oct free, 1/3 is about $39, 1/6 $69, 1/24 $99. I use a Fastrack Pro interface with a dbx mic and a Win 7 laptop. Works great..

https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm

I have used a standalone 1/3 rack unit for years but it is just clunky to carry around and I lost ability to print from it..Can store and print on True RTA.

---

That may be similar to the Presonus version of Smaart, but it’s missing the most important feature of real Smaart – phase response, which is required for system alignment. This software is only marginally more useful than the RTA built-in to the GLD.

The new Smaart DI is significantly less expensive than the full-blown Smaart, and is a better place to start.

---

Thanks TJ,
I recently read up on the new SMAART DI. It still appears to be a heavy piece of software, but I guess it would be easier to tackle than the standard version. I think I may have to dive down the rabbit hole….again.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, GLD AR84, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GCumbee

Joe:

Here is an option. Kind of like SMAART only much cheaper. 1 oct free, 1/3 is about $39, 1/6 $69, 1/24 $99. I use a Fastrack Pro interface with a dbx mic and a Win 7 laptop. Works great..

https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm

I have used a standalone 1/3 rack unit for years but it is just clunky to carry around and I lost ability to print from it..Can store and print on True RTA.

Another thing I have used lately. A couple of well known engineers in Nashville created a disc years ago. One of them is a close friend of mine so I got a copy of it. It has a full range pink noise for 1 min, then a 1K filtered noise for 1 min to calibrate an SPL meter to what you want. Say 80-90db or whatever. Then it goes in 1/3 octave filtered cuts down to 31hz, then starts at 1.25K and up to 16K. The filtered cuts are sharp Q’s with obvious slight side band but are centered on the selected freq. Just make a list of how each band compares to the reference 1K. After you have done that then use your EQ to adjust to correct based on that. You will be likely cutting a lot which is best anyway.
It works great. I have made otherwise crappy rooms and systems really shape up. I do use my ears for final adjustments. The disc has several very nice music cuts to listen to. I listened to them on nice control room speakers and headphones to orient myself with how they really sound to compare. Then I use a mic usually the type that will be used for primary use to see how it sounds. Vocal mic, podium mic etc. A combination is what is the final decision on it. Just never ever solely use pink noise as a lot of people wrongly do. Also auto eq’s don’t work that well either.

George, MIDCOMM AV, Paducah, KY USA

GLD 80
AR2412

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Thanks George,
That CD sounds like a pretty useful item to have in your tool box. Are they available somewhere?

The software you mentioned is PC only, so that leaves me out. I jumped on the Mac bandwagon a few years ago and never looked back.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, GLD AR84, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris93

See here:

https://iliveforum.allen-heath.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2732

It’s worth running a sine sweep through the PA to see if anything’s going to resonate and cause buzzing, door handles seem to like 70Hz. []

Chris

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Thanks for the link Chris. That’s a very informative article on Pro Sound Web. I feared that this room eq process was more complex than what I had hoped. I’m thinking that I may have to bite the bullet and dive in with SMAART. Lots to learn……

Thanks,
Joe

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

I just wanted to report that the gig went down without a hitch. I was thrown a lot of curve balls at the last minute, but the flexibility of the GLD with routing, copy/paste, and all the customization features made it easy to accommodate everything on the fly. Meyers tops and bottoms, full house, sounded great. Couldn’t be more pleased.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

Your tips make sense on the vocals guys. I don’t think I’ll have a problem with needing them the more I think about it. No wedges and a pretty big stage. The two primary vocalists are very good with mic technique.

The side chain filter for things like drums is making sense now. On my old desk it there was a ‘key filter’ that basically let you sweep to a desired frequency. With the side chain on the Allen & Heath, like everything else on the GLD, just gives added flexibility and function.

I love this desk.[]

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris93

Agreed, muting the send will let the effect decay naturally.

Chris

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Makes perfect sense. Why didn’t I think of that?[]

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Spence

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Hinkens

For our band, I created a new show and then built several scenes within that show.

This weekend I’m running sound for an event with an entirely different setup of routing, instruments, etc, much different than our regular setup. So I created a new show and started a new scene in that show.

Now I’m wondering if there is any way to copy a lot of the library entries I created in my original show and paste them into the new show to save time.

As I think it through, I probably could have just kept working in my original show and created new scenes. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

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I would have simply saved my earlier show as a new show name and proceeded from that.

rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

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Aaaah! I can’t believe I missed that one. I’ve done it many times with scenes. The 70’s are creeping up on me. Too late now, but I’m almost done. Next time for sure.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris93

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Hinkens

One other question…..
As I understand it, there’s no way to get an email notification when a response is posted to a thread on this forum. So if not, how do you stay on top of threads, topics, etc?

Many thanks,
Joe

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I have a link to the forum in the chrome bookmarks bar just under the URL bar, no fancy system, I just check it every so often if I’m on the computer. [] The most recently posted-in thread goes to the top of the page too, I think, so that helps to see if somethings changed.

Chris

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OK. Big thanks Chris. Both you and Rick have been a big help today. I’m off to the movies with the wifey now before she kicks me out. []
Over and out for now.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

[Joe HinkensParticipant]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris93

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Hinkens

One other question…..
As I understand it, there’s no way to get an email notification when a response is posted to a thread on this forum. So if not, how do you stay on top of threads, topics, etc?

Many thanks,
Joe

---

I have a link to the forum in the chrome bookmarks bar just under the URL bar, no fancy system, I just check it every so often if I’m on the computer. [] The most recently posted-in thread goes to the top of the page too, I think, so that helps to see if somethings changed.

Chris

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OK. Big thanks Chris. Both you and Rick have been a big help today. I’m off to the movies with the wifey now before she kicks me out. []
Over and out for now.

Thanks,
Joe

GLD-80 w/M-DANTE, GLD-AR2412, MacBook Pro, Studio One 2

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