Volume jumps or drops when fader moves past 10

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This topic contains 29 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Giga Giga 4 years ago.

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  • #64936
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    It seems that the volume, as the slider is moved up or down, anytime you pass 10, the volume will change about 3db. When mixing a live group the volume change makes the instrument go away if you move below 10. It is the same on all channels so I was wondering if there was a calibration for faders like the one for the fader motors. Maybe a global setting? Firmware is 1.90 and fader firmware is V02.5. Any ideas?
    Thanks

    #64939
    Profile photo of [XAP]Bob
    [XAP]Bob
    Participant

    Above/below 10…

    Isn’t 10 the top of the fader?

    #64942
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    There is also a 10 you pass as you move the slider up. It is just below the GEQ mark.

    #64943
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    Here’s a picture.

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    #64945
    Profile photo of Dick Rees
    Dick Rees
    Participant

    It seems that the volume, as the slider is moved up or down, anytime you pass 10, the volume will change about 3db.

    How do you come to the 3dB figure? Meters? ???

    When mixing a live group the volume change makes the instrument go away if you move below 10.

    Can you be more specific? Does the signal disappear entirely or is it simply dropping below the level of audibility within the mix?

    It is the same on all channels so I was wondering if there was a calibration for faders like the one for the fader motors. Maybe a global setting? Firmware is 1.90 and fader firmware is V02.5. Any ideas?

    With the limited subjective information offered it is very likely that this is the result of your input gain settings, the material/instruments/arrangements of the group, the mix content, the speakers/processing and room anomalies/mix position.

    IOW, until you can post some substantial information it’ll be guesswork.

    #64946
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    The 3db change is not a perfect number. A 3db change in volume is easy to hear. Could be more around 6db. Easy to hear when it jumps up or drops down. In the mix, it is lost when you go below 10.
    I have been mixing on this board for over 9 months. In a live situation I have noticed from day one that when you reduce the volume on a channel, the instrument would seem to be lost in the mix. I would look to see if the part was over…was the player done…not always. Sometimes when you first set levels, you ask and the player to play as loud in sound check as possible…but, the player never delivers the level they will be playing at with the whole band. Never. If the instrument is a mandolin, the band kicks in and the preamp is on red alert…adjusting the preramp gain will mess with the monitor mix…so as I would drop the level in the mix (with all that is going on I never noticed the exact position of the fader) and then it seemed to be gone…turn it up, instantly too loud. To me, this has been an issue for quite a while. I have just never had a reason to “play” with the board…it isn’t mine.

    Then, fader 2 stopped moving (that was an easy fix) I took the Qu-24 to my studio and finally heard (but didn’t understand) why instruments seemed to go away in the mix with such a small slider change. All the faders will increase or decrease the volume once you move the slider above or below the lowest 10. I have tried a mic, same thing. I tried the Q drive, still the same. Every input is the same when you slide past 10.

    Hope this gives you more information. The fader stopped moving because of a broken trace in the circuit.

    Any help is wonderful. Thanks for your time.

    #64947
    Profile photo of Dick Rees
    Dick Rees
    Participant

    As I suspected and mentioned above, this is almost surely the typical problem of setting input gain as you note when citing the discrepancy between playing levels during sound check and performance level. With time and experience you learn what to expect and how to quickly readjust input gain settings as needed.

    Referencing -10dB as the critical point doesn’t really mean too much. If your input gains were different, the point at which a channel signal level becomes too low for the mix would still be there, albeit at a different reference number on the fader scale.

    Mixing audio is more than just raising and lowering faders. You need to know how to use channel strip EQ’s in a complimentary fashion so that the sonic signatures do not mask one another in the critical ranges. In addition, a titch of input delay on one or another channel can aid in aural separation without compromising frequency content. Some things need to be reined in with judicious comp/limiting as well.

    There’s every chance that the mixer is just fine and what you’re experiencing is apocryphal and subjective. I could be totally wrong, of course, as the information available is still rather murky.

    #64949
    Profile photo of Giga
    Giga
    Participant

    Have you ever tried to replicate the situation by doing a “virtual soundcheck” using the Qdrive ? That would allow you to monitor what’s happening without the live-stress.

    Are you using a lot of compression on the mains ? If the treshold is around the 10 mark you can run into what you’re desrcibing.

    Do you have lot of spill from the wedges into FOH ? A musician deciding to back of + you pulling him/her back a little goes double that way.

    Giga

    #64951
    Profile photo of [XAP]Bob
    [XAP]Bob
    Participant

    At -10 you are heading out of the ‘finest’ control region of the fader as well, so you will get more effect for the same fader movement…

    #64967
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    Using the fader flip GEQ I can see what is going on with the audio levels. The changes seen on the touch screen of the GEQ is what you hear by using fader. It is exactly what happens to the sound level. As you reach ZERO on the eq, which is -10 on fader, you can see the level jump. That looks like 6db since the max eq boost is +12 and it looks half way. Now I know the level is increasing 6db as the fader moves above the -10. If the GEQ is accurately representing what the fader is doing to the audio level, then at -10 on the fader the level jumps 6db. From that point the level slowly increases until you hit +10 on the fader, +12 on the eq. As you lower volume from +10, just before the fader reaches -10 the EQ will still be showing at +6. When the fader passes -10, the level on the eq will jump to center reference and then slide down like you think it should. This makes the GEQ useless because there is a 6db gap between ZERO and +6 that you can’t access. Since there are only 24 faders, the frequencies outside the number of faders work just fine above ZERO with the control knob. Only the ones the faders are linked too have this issue.

    #64968
    Profile photo of NZdave
    NZdave
    Participant

    No Videos?

    #64969
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    sorry…too large.
    I can email them to you.

    #64970
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    Maybe this will play.

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    #64972
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    Here is a video.

    #64984
    Profile photo of AudioWorks
    AudioWorks
    Participant

    Here is the fader being controlled by the knob. I am turning the knob as smoothly as possible. When the fader starts jumping up and down, I am still turning the knob slowly. When the fader reaches the top, then I turn the other way. Notice how smooth the fader moves till it hits the -10 mark. Then it is jerkey and sometimes it goes back down like you see in the end. Any ideas?

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