Managing a BIG production (topic: mute management)

Forums Forums iLive Forums Archived iLive Discussions Managing a BIG production (topic: mute management)

This topic contains 12 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of woutert woutert 9 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #23070
    Profile photo of 01soundman
    01soundman
    Participant

    Going to put this out here for comment since I’m stuck for options…

    System:
    144 surface controlling
    iDR-32 master rack
    w/iDR10 slave (64 mic inputs)

    I have a VERY large, rather complicated, musical drama production coming up and want to use the Scenes as a Mute Controller system; essentially only muting/unmuting channels/strips as needed to move between/within the drama scenes.

    I’m aware of the ‘update’ vs. ‘store all’ options for saving Scene data and am hoping to do something like:

    A) ‘Store All’ for initial scene. (Scene #1)
    B) ‘Update’ mutes only for subsequent scenes. (Scene #2-15)
    C) ‘Store All’ for next significant scene change. (Scene #16)
    D) ‘Update’ mutes only for subsequent scenes. (Scene #17-23)
    etc./etc./etc. to the end (likely 95+ ‘mute controller’ scenes)

    Coming from a Crest X-Series 64 (analog) desk with a Mackie TT24 sidecar, this was rather straightforward since all the Crest desk had was a Mute Scene Controller. Levels and/or EQs were manually adjusted as we went along.

    One of my frustrations is that I’m sure the iLive system is capable of MUCH more than that but my concern is the time it will take to program it in and my lack of knowledge of how to do it…

    Suggestions? Any help greatly appreciated.

    RayH

    #29136
    Profile photo of Stix
    Stix
    Participant

    Hi Ray. I came from using a soundcraft K2 analogue console that had easy to program mute scenes for theatre and so was thinking exactly as you are before I got the iLive. I quickly found out to forget about creating mute scenes! The way I work with theatre shows is to do the store all on first scene, then set up subsequent scenes to only record mutes levels and assignments. I don’t use the mutes at all however- I program using fader levels. There are many reasons why using fader levels is better than just having mutes stored – firstly visually it is very obvious which channels are on as the faders are up, down if off. When the scenes are then recalled your eye is automatically taken to the correct faders. If you have songs with different leads or difficult vocal balances the level scenes will give you consistent starting points – during rehearsals you fine tune and update the scenes as you go. It’s very quick to program provided you have scenes set up in advance (edited) to only contain mutes/levels and assignments. I usually video a shows rehearsal before pack in to work out where scenes need to be, and what is required in them. That saves a lot of time as you can pre program and name scenes in advance.
    You do need extra time when programming at initial rehearsals so it’s a good idea to advise clients of that possibility. Just like lighting If you don’t get a scene right at one rehearsal it will still be wrong at the next one! The biggest problem is that there is no way to preview a scene without actually recalling it. Because of that I set up a scene safe DCA mute group for all radio/open mics and assign it to one of the user keys. Then if you need to check a scene just mute the DCA first, make any changes to the scene, and update. As the DCA is scene safe it won’t be recalled. Once the show is programmed fairly accurately I change the scene pref to auto advance on recall. This is a personal thing but if you have a lot of very quick scene changes then you can just step through them with Go. I also program aux/ fx send levels, and other advanced settings – such as assignments to different vocal subgroups as they change during the show (leads/ Backing vocals etc) and even strip assignments for certain scenes but seldom ever do a store all except to scene one which you update at the end of each rehearsal to store all other settings. This gives you the freedom to make changes to eq,dynamics, patching etc on the fly at any point of the show. Also remember – scene safes can be your friend – if you have a problem channel (crackling mic etc) then safe it and ride it manually. After working this way for a two years there is no way I want to go back to just mutes! Good luck!

    Cheers

    Richard Howey
    Audio Dynamite Ltd
    IDR48/IDR16/T112/R72/Mixpad,Tweak,
    Dual M-Dante/DVS, 17″MBP/Logic 9/Custom Mackie Control

    #29137
    Profile photo of Gijsbert
    Gijsbert
    Participant

    Hi Ray, i just did a musical tour with a t112 and a idr 32 and 32 wireless mics. I can send you my show file so you can see how i’ve done it. Just contact me if you’re interested!

    Greetings,

    Gijsbert

    #29143
    Profile photo of ddff_lv
    ddff_lv
    Participant

    Gijsbert,

    if you don’t mind, could I have a look as well?
    my mail is ddff at inbox dott lv

    thanks, ddff

    #29148
    Profile photo of Gijsbert
    Gijsbert
    Participant

    Ddff, i will send you the show tommorow! I found out my usb stick is still in the desk….

    Greetings,

    Gijsbert

    #29149
    Profile photo of Geep
    Geep
    Participant

    You might have a look at Palladium and MicPlot, both by Chris Hubbard at CH Sound Design in Australia. Palladium is his show control program and will take a file from MicPlot, his wireless mike utility, and do all the scene programming for you. Chris has a template fore the iLive series that will handle fader levels and mutes, so you can set things up as Richard suggests. Extremely versatile, demo version available, although you may have to ask for the iLive template. The only issue I have is when reconfiguring the system for different numbers of busses, they are not easily identified in the software but once found can be labelled and used, i.e. EQ busses, Main busses, etc. Setting up requires some knowledge of MIDI programming, as that is what the software uses to run things. MS Windows only, or a Mac with BootCamp. Disclaimer — I love Chris’s work and use his software extensively, have suggested some ideas that have been incorporated into the programs but have no financial or other interest in the company. Chris is a working sound guy and wrote both these programs when they began to help him do shows. Very helpful and friendly guy.

    Geep

    Geep

    #29159
    Profile photo of gilparente
    gilparente
    Participant

    Some phenomenal suggestions up here.
    I’d say that after doint your innicial store all scene, go ahead and save mutes,levels to the next 15 scenes or whatever many and then at e point you want to start saving the mute scenes, all you have to do is select the scene and just hit update. Seems to be straight forward.
    Scene management is an art in itself, theater guys seem to have it down more than anyone else.

    Gil Parente
    Design & Integration
    Entertainment Arts, Inc.

    #29161
    Profile photo of Gijsbert
    Gijsbert
    Participant

    The big mistake is doing a store all scene as your first scene. When you do some eq-ing in the next 100 or something scenes and the next day you start with your first scene, you’ve lost everything!….. I make a scene in wich i have everything i need, like mute, level (not main or dca level), pan and delay. Then i copy that scene about 120 times. During rehearsel i tweak a scene, give it a name and update. The name is MY scene name. So ilive scene 37 could be my scene 41 , because i inserted scene 34.1 trhu 34.7 for example. In a new theatre i just make new main levels and leave them and i eq the veneu….

    #29162
    Profile photo of Stix
    Stix
    Participant

    Doing a scene one store all is not a big mistake. – it is a backup of all settings – if you read my earlier post then note I said I seldom do a store all except at the end of each rehearsal – I do this AND do a show backup to USB stick before shutdown. We are all used to working with computers where saving at the end of your session is a necessity for most programs.

    Cheers

    Richard Howey
    Audio Dynamite Ltd
    IDR48/IDR16/T112/R72/Mixpad,Tweak,
    Dual M-Dante/DVS, 17″MBP/Logic 9/Custom Mackie Control

    #29164
    Profile photo of Mr-B
    Mr-B
    Participant

    Think what Stix says makes sense, and with the jump to next filled scene in 1.83? that makes it easy to leave spare scenes for insertion into the show if you miss something. Bit like the lighting guys have been doing for years. Not been a great user of scenes in the past but got a nice little event coming February to give all these wrinkles a try.
    Buon Natale[:D]

    #29270
    Profile photo of Gijsbert
    Gijsbert
    Participant

    Hello stix,

    You are right, store all is a good thing, i us e it at the end of the scene list. What i meant was a store all scene as the first scene. But i never use it as my first scene

    #29273
    Profile photo of 01soundman
    01soundman
    Participant

    This is GREAT input! Please continue the conversation.

    And while you’re at it, help ease my concerns over recall time. Sounds like the way to go is to do an initial ‘store all’ as a “master template” scene, copy that for however many scenes I have (looking like 95-100 or so), then modify each scene as we rehearse/etc.

    Here’s the catch: Can I recall these scenes “between syllables”? Having done this show on the analog desk that the iLive replaced, I’m aware of two or three scenes where I’m going to be hitting “Go” when the actor takes a breath… (Yeah, it’s that tight.) So recall time has to be instantaneous.

    As something of a sidenote, I actually build ‘bridge’ scenes where Actors A, B, and C are onstage, Actors D and E come on stage with dialog and join A/B/C; then A and B leave; and all the while EVERYONE is talking…

    I’m on 1.82 and haven’t tested the waters but, based on the comments above, this is the way I very well may go if the recall time isn’t a factor.

    Again, THANKS for all the input. VERY helpful!

    RayH

    #29274
    Profile photo of woutert
    woutert
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by 01soundman

    Here’s the catch: Can I recall these scenes “between syllables”?


    For fast recalls you better use ‘slim’ or lean scenes. Especially if you’re only changing volumes. No need to put in extensive EQ-parameters if you’re not changing them at that very moment.

    By the way, a nice feature if you started out with “store all”: you can copy all scenes to a new show whilst filtering out all the parameters that you don’t need. Not so known maybe, but a really cool feature. (Via Scene import/Export manager and there the “Filter” Button)

    Wouter
    IDR32, Dante, Mixpad
    laptop, TP-Link TL-WR1043ND

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)

The forum ‘Archived iLive Discussions’ is closed to new topics and replies.