[DilettantParticipant]

You can send after Channel EQ to the Mixes but there is only one Channel EQ per Channel. Each mix has its own EQ (parameteric and graphical if necessary). There is no Channel EQ per Mix.

You could patch one input to several Mixer Channels and each has its own EQ and Sends then. Since the Mixer can handle up to 48 Mono Channels that may be a solution even with a number of Inputs.

Also you can choose your send points per Channel and Mix between after Preamp, after EQ, after Insert/FX, after Delay and post fader.

[DilettantParticipant]

In General, any USB3 Storage device should work on USB2 and even USB1 ports.

BUT: There are major compatibility issues with SQ Drive and many SSD storage devices no matter what generation they are. Only some devices really work – and speed is just one thing that can go wrong.

I just had a disaster with a 1TB Samsung NVME SSD in Combination with a realtek 9210 USB3 Adapter box – didn’t work at all on SQ although it works fine on any PC i know.

Even A&H says they cannot tell anymore which devices will work and which not without testing. And as far as it seems most of that won’t be fixed in near future.

You can always use your SD Storage device with a PC or Notebook connected to USB Port A and USB-Audio – that works fine on all major Operating Systems as far as i know. If you cannot test before and need reliability that for sure is the best way.

Surprisingly reported to work good in many times with SQ Drive are USB 2.0 or 3.0 SD Card Readers with SDHC / SDXC Cards. A 256GB Sony “rugged” SDXC Card in a USB3 Card Reader records 32 Tracks here since 5 hours so that seems to work fully, too.

Conclusion:

1) if you need to have a maximum reliable, predictable Solution, using a Notebook or even some RasPi to record/playback via USB A is the most safe Option by far. It also has the benefit that you can record and playback at the same time and that you can have much better Software for file Management on the Notebook. Windows and Mac are supported by A&H, but even Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is working as far as i can say now (so later versions should, too).

2) If you want ore have to work with USB Boxes to avoid that notebook, you really need to test that your specific devices are working and beware that you may have to exchange them with similar ones that work (what can be an endless search).

3) If you need to order your devices “blind” without test and have no time or way to return/exchange them if not working and the Notebook Solution is no way for you, the SDHC/SDXC Card Reader Option seems to me the one with best chances to work good. It also has its charm since SD Cards are widely available even up to 1TB capacity for low costs.

For myself, i now ordered a cheap Class 10/UCIII SD Card with 1TB capacity to see if that works, too. If it does, I’ll mount the card reader with a short cable and some piece of Velcro Tape on the Mixer (maybe on the top of the lamp) so it can stay there even when the flightcase is closed for transportation.

[DilettantParticipant]

@KeithJ A&H

First of all, really thanks for your statement. It clarifies a lot and it is really a valuable point to see A&H is interested what is talked about in the forum. And it is interesting having some insight view.

Meanwhile I at least got some 256GB SDXC Card to really work using an USB card reader on USB B. Seems that might be an acceptable way as bigger SDXC cards are available or at least raising up this times. I’ll see if i can afford one.

But i think at least it should be possible to bring most SSD NVME Storage devices to work. If necessary, with some small extra Hardware to buy for the USB A Port.

I agree there is not much benefit on investing much time using too crappy thumb drives or ancient storage boxes. They are too limited and/or their time will be over soon anyway.

SSD/SATA and SSD/NVME via USB3 definitely will be the dominating portable big storage devices of the next decade on nearly all fields of consumer and smaller professional IT.

Smaller capacities may use SDXC (or even Micro SDXC) but there is no doubt the “big ones” will “speak” USB 3.0 with NVME behind it (even SATA starts going legacy now as most new notebooks, Desktop PCs integrate M.2 NVME Slots – maybe even some tablet prototypes, don’t know).

WHen it comes to I could build some recording device myself:

Maybe i could, indeed. It is not my primary skill but i sure would be able to bring up a raspi system with a touch screen and click together some gui to trigger command line recording tools already there that would make up a sufficient session recorder.

But after thinking over it, i sure don’t want to. I already bought a Mixer that was proven to provide the functionality i need. Why should i invest time and money creating a device that provides things i already paid for?

The additional benefits may be nice but were examples for what could be gained on top, not what i personally desire much. Many of them would be handy but the thing i need and (have already) paid for was recording 32 Tracks on bigger USB storage devices.

If i wanted to do that with a separate notebook, i also could have bought some much cheaper Soundcraft or Behringer Mixer with similar capabilities (despite of the 96 kHz and super low latency but that was no primary buying argument for me – having pre fader sends before channel delays was, multitracking to USB, having a good remote App, having digital stageboxes with cat5 wiring – some more but not much).

So since i paid for a solution that was proven, i should be allowed to expect those who took the money will deliver one.

Maybe in one or two firmware releases – giving a fair amount of time is completely ok for me. But the expectation is absolutely legitime as far as i can see. At least i (and many other customers) will expect to see a better solution in the next SQ Generation – and i think you are not really telling us classified internals if you say you are working on that. Your engineers cannot be content with the actual situation now, can they?

[DilettantParticipant]

I think the obviously fix for next generation is to throw away the FPGA USB Storage implementation and intgegrate some embedded SoC or small computer into the mixing desk to handle that. Not the USB Audio/MIDI interface – those seem to work very well, no reason to kill them.

But even a 40$ (for end Users!) RasPi with Raspbian or some BSD on it would do USB Storage very well out of the Box. That could be directly connected to USB Audio/MIDI Interface for that part.

Such a Subsystem could bring many additional benefits since it could use standard free software libraries for many purposes beside the core mixing task.

A multi format Audio Player or Multi Track Recorder is just hacking some user Interface over existing free libraries on that. Some kind of “MIDI Script sequencer” – for example, action sequences for soft keys would just be some MIDI Macros there. Streaming connectivity – Playback from Audio Streaming Services from Internet or directly live-stream a mix to any youtube account would not be too hard to implement. Managing stored Shows and Scenes would be much more easy. Using Mixer Faders to send DMX Control messages just would need some “MIDI to DMX Translator” which is not so hard to implement and a DMX interface (which could be connected via USB). Integrate some DLNA Server to directy download recordings to Musician’s tablets after Studio Sessions may make sense.

The List of interesting features that become possible with little effort on that is endless. And even existing things may get more easy – various Presets for example would not need to get management implemented on the FPGA but could be simple files on an internal Storage managed by some kind of file explorer or even database.

However, for sure that will not happen on now existing Mixers. It could be done by creating an external device connected to the USB Port on the backside of the mixer but the benefit of that compared to attaching a Notebook is too low.

Anyway, i think they will at least try to extend USB Storage compatibility to some more acceptable level – maybe to most NVME and SATA SSD Drives, that should not be too hard – or at least bring in a really working compatibility list with bigger devices which is much less hard than one with thumb drives.

I personally don’t think they’ll bother on thumb drives at all since without a really big write cache this will stay unmanageable. But to get most available SSD Boxes working would calm down most disguised users since that gives a feasonable solution to most cases with fairly low additional investment.

[DilettantParticipant]

Yes and No.

In General, you should not buy something that does not have the main features you basically need. That’s correct. Don’t buy a DJ Mixer if you need a Broadcast Console.

But for the first, if a feature is presented as a selling point in Marketing, it also must be reliably usable by the customer. There is absolutely no excuse at all for a Vendor to not deliver what he offers. He may make mistakes, but then he has to demonstrate he fixes them as soon as possible. Trying to “discuss away” the Problem won’t make content customers – and one uncontent customer makes 7 times more lost customers than a content one can ever help to convince at all.

For the second, the product that fits all your needs won’t exist in most cases. Despite you let someone build a custom device especially for you, each buy is a compromise and so there will be always features missing you would like or need. Maybe not with high priority, but nevertheless they will miss.

So it is absolutely legitimate to

1) insist that a vendor completely delivers what he offers. Especially if he says his product is for “professional use”, there is absolutely no tolerance on that. If vendors ads say “this Mixer will make you fly”, it will have to do so or you have any right on the planet to complain and give that vendor “bad press”. They take your money, they have to deliver what they offer. That is the deal, nothing else.

2) ask for features and extensions where the vendor gives room for that – for example in a Forum called “feature suggestions”. So the vendor can make its product better – by firmware upgrades, by offering hardware addons or by changing such things in a followup product. And absolutely most things suggested here are not obviously impossible or senseless. Of course, they will have to be priorized and maybe discussed.

Oh, and if you look in old Threads not only in this Forum, even SQ Series needed such feedback and updates very badly at the beginning. There were several things absolutely not good. Some people say, the SQ with firmware below 1.5 were not acceptable at all in many points.

I would not go so far but if i read some of the “Fixes” i have to ask what quality control of that company was doing before the product was released at all. A typical “Banana product” that ripes at the Customer is not really a recommendation for professional audio users.

However, the firmware has already improved straightly and several things have gotten massively better since that days. Features i personally and some other people suggested here in last weeks are in the vast majority “nice to have” usability enhancements, no Show stoppers. Nevertheless, they would raise value of the desks.

It is a good thing that even a Product Manager reads in this forum and gives some comments about what may be possible and what is definitely not or why some decisions where made like they are. As long as he takes the input and gets the engineers working on critical points, there is nothing wrong with that.

However, there are some remaining Problems. One is the SQ Drive device support which should definitely get on the schedule again soon – if A&H wants to be recognized as a professional vendor, there is no doubt it must become able to reliably predict which USB storage devices will/won’t work for at least 90% of currently available products in the mass markets or at least to make official suggestions for a dozen definitely working (even with 32 Tracks) and actually orderable devices from 16GB up to 2TB capacity. Lamento about poorly implemented devices is no solution.

Maybe they can change the Hardware in next generation to improve that part further, but nevertheless they have to get it working at least basically reliable in current generation.

[DilettantParticipant]

Well since according to documentation sq drive supports up to 4TB, any class compliant and fast enough 1TB device _should_ work. Art least most of them. According to this Thread’s List, 6 of 8 don’t.

@SteffenR:

They sure didn’t make their own Controller chip. Standard USB Controller Hardware is not much more than an UART. The Class dependent higher level Protocols have to be implemented in some kind of software. A&H seems to have implemented it on the FPGA so no classical “Driver” could be used for that. It would be also possible to use some microcontroller but then it would be really dumb not to choose one with already existing free USB Storage Class drivers – that’s a standard feature since decades.

So if they self-made it, they had to implement the high level protocol Layers for Mass Storage which are at least the FAT Filesystem (which is mandatory Standard) and the UAS Block device access Layer (which mostly is a kind of encapsulated SATA/SCSI and necessary because BOD) on the FPGA. And additionally some logic to write audio streams to FAT files and the User Interface.

The symptoms with my disk look like there is a Problem with the UAS Part which might be the most complicated one, so it is the classical source of Bugs in such a stack. The good news is that that is part of the firmware so it can be fixed. The bad news is that FPGA Programming is a little more complicated than classical Computer/Microcontroller Programming for such tasks.

[DilettantParticipant]

@SteffenR

There are several Security Camera vendors that offer local Storage on USB (even on Sticks). General Home Video Models i don’t know.

But that’s splitting Hairs. USB Storage is widely spread in almost any kind of device that needs storage. Most Photo and Video Cameras only support SD/XD, some professional
Models support SATA – which is very similar since USB UAS is nothing different than SATA over USB. Almost any Smartphone and any Noebook can read from and write on USB Storage.

And it is simply so that most of the gadgets that can use USB Storage are able to write to most USB storage devices you can normally buy. You don’t have to bother about getting a working one when you are going to Saturn, Arlt or any other Hardware store and simply buy the next available USB Storage.

Just SQ Drive can not use most USB Storage devices at all. And worse, nobody can tell you what available device to buy so it will definitely work.

Sorry, that can’t be a serious offer for professional work. It has to be fixed some way, no matter even if there are some broken sticks.

[DilettantParticipant]

According to KeithJA&H posting in https://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/integrate-a-simple-usb-audio-player-for-common-file-formats,

” there is no ‘computer’ in the SQ,” […] “SQ-Drive is a hardware solution interfacing with a system which we built from the ground up.”

That does not sound like a third party technology to me – on contrary, that sounds like they exactly wanted to avoid to have 3rd party technology
in that Mixer and do it on their own. Looks like kind of a commonly called “NIH Syndrome” (NIH = “Not invented here”).

However, from a retrospective point of view, that seems to have been a mistake.

They must have wasted months of developer time to create an own USB Storage Host on the FPGA – an absolutely standard functinoality, available on several Microcontrollers and Computers for decades. Video Cameras can write on USB, any Smartphone can write on USB, any desktop operating System and most embedded operating systems can. That is a complex task, but no rocket science. Maybe other vendors have smelled the “Odeur” of USB Storage and didn’t go that way because of that – most of them only offer USB Audio or Recording on SD Cards.

A&H could have a better SQ Drive and a better USB Audio Player (supporting several widespread file formats) by simply including some embedded ARM SoC or even a RasPi into the Mixer Box, connect that to the working USB Audio/MIDI Implementation, hacking some Touch Screen GUI with User Controls for recording and playback on that and connecting the “USB A” Port to it. It is pretty sure that would have eaten not a third of the developer capacity that was necessary to implement an own USB Storage Host on FPGA. At least, there were much more supported devices and an active community that fixes Bugs upstream.

That had opened the way to use the USB drivers and Libraries available for the Operating System of the Embedded device – all that free stuff from decoding MP3, Ogg, FLAC and AIFF for playback, Full Duplex Mode and a Multitrack Recorder that can really use almost any USB Device available. Oh and of course all those USB Implementations support USB Hubs. So even the silly stunt of attaching an USB Hub and 32 single super-cheap Thumb drives to record one track on each of them for performance issues could be done somehow (although i would not really try that for production usage).

Also, they could use that embedded System for additional features, too – some DAW Functions, sending MIDI Macros to the Mixer, storing/saving presets and scenes, integrating some DMX Control Features (like the Soundcraft Performer Series Mixers have) or even more crazy things like printing cable Labels on an attached USB Label Printer or streaming audio from/to the Internet would be possible with minimal effort. Also that could be used for remote support purposes (so someone from A&H could connect to the Mixer in your studio and analyze problems if you allow him like you do with teamViewer and a PC Remote Helpdesk) – the list of possible usage is endless.

But nevertheless: they didn’t integrate such hardware and decided to implement their own USB Storage Host on FPGA. That is not illegal of course. But if you create it and you write it as an unique selling point on your marketing papers, there is no acceptable excuse at all if it doesn’t work reliable and stable – as long as the USB Storage device is fast, reliable and big enough. A device that has been used succesfully for Recording of 32 Tracks for several hours with a simple notebook has proven it is.

Of course, it could be possible to create even such an Addon as a separate Box connected to USB Port A. But that would not really have a benefit over using a notebook for recording since the main advantage of SQ Drive is to have no need for an additional box or Computer with cabling and all that other things that can go wrong. The only real Selling point of SQ Drive is you need nothing but the Mixer and an USB storage Device. And as long as even A&H cannot say “buy device xyz and that will work”, the main benefit of that feature is simply not there – it _is_ broken.

[DilettantParticipant]

Since SQ-Drive appears to have massive Problems with several USB Storage devices (not only thumb drives by far) and it is practically impossible to predict which USB Storage device to order that will work with it especially but not only when it comes to Multitrack Recording, anyone who really needs that functionality should at least consider using some Notebook or small Computer Device (Raspi?) for Recording and Playback via the USB A Port as “Plan B”.

That way it works much more flawless and reliable and allows to do recording and playback simultaneously even to USB Storage devices not working on USB Port B that are fast enough to handle the data.

[DilettantParticipant]

@volunteer

You are getting more and more ridiculous now.

I can go to any hardware store and buy some USB Storage hardware and in 99,9% of the cases that will work out of the Box with Win10, Mac, Linux, any BSD flavour, my VW Car Radio, my Android tablet and almost any other thing that needs USB storage out there. The only thing i have to care of is that it is big enough and fast enough for the task.

There are some really evil broken devices out there, but chances to get one in a shop are really low, especially when leaving out the cheap thumb drives. By far most of the available USB Storage devices sold work very well with most common USB Hosts.

In Fact, best case chances that a bought USB Storage device will work with SQ Drive are around 30% even if i leave out thumb drives and devices that are too slow by specs or generally problematic according to widespread test results.

If i counted right, from 8 common available SSD Drives with 500GB and up in the List of this Forum Thread 6 are reported to have massive Problems with SQ Drive. For 1TB SSDs only 2 are reported to work sometimes at all. 80% of the List mentions devices that are even historic and no more available to buy in regular stores.

Just sort by capacity and scroll down the list and see how many red there is in the last column!. And then strike out Hard Disks (which are really ancient now for such a task) and any device that is not actually available in stores now.

That might be ok if the SQ Mixers were out of stock since 10 Years. But as long as i can buy one at almost any bigger audio hardware store that is simply inacceptable.

So it has to be clearly stated that varying device implementations can not be the main Problem here. Facts let little doubt SQ/Qu Drive is.

If other central functions in that Mixers would work as bad (for example, the Mic Inputs would not work with 80% of the available Microphones) for sure customers would slap that desks around A&H dealers’ faces all the day.

That does not happen – mainly, because the Workaround to use a Notebook for Recording works well. Most other Mixers in that price range can’t multitrack “on board” at all or have more embarassing caveats. And because massive Multitracking might be not a very important functionality for many SQ/Qu Users at all.

The real founding of the disaster is also not so difficult to identify. A&H did not use widely available known to work USB libs since they have not included any general purpose Computer in the SQ/Qu. Instead, they made their own implementation of supported USB Protocols as a self-developed FPGA Solution.

The audio part of that seems to be really good. Maybed the developers had much more experience and references on that, maybe this part is much more easy, maybe it is just older code and thus, better tested. I don’t know about the USB/MIDI part since i did not use that yet.

But the Mass Storage part is simply a disaster for now. They tried to reinvent the wheel and ended up with some cubic thing that only can roll on specially plastered ways but they even don’t know where such ways are available, how to build such a plaster or who can do that.

I could bet if they instead had integrated some small computer Hardware like a Raspi for such tasks into the Mixer, in sum that would have gone cheaper since their FPGA developers then could focus on the good working USB Audio/MIDI part and they could use already available free Software libraries for the Mass Storage part or even outsource that. It had also some more benefits not at focus here, for example supporting more audio file formats for playback.

Without that hardware, they had to create their own Mass Storage implementation on FPGA. That includes an USB-supported Filesystem (FAT32) and since BOT isn’t sufficient for Multitracking they also need UAS what has a bunch of subprotocols down to the ATA/SCSI Command set. That is a lot of complex work.

However, even that could be done well (some day). For the Moment it definitely isn’t. SQ Drive is dysfunctionally broken with most in reality available Storage devives and even according to A&H there is no way to reliably order a storage device that will definitely work at all.

A&H could at least offer or “certify” some big USB Mass Storage devices itself. I think customers even would pay a 20% additional fee for such one if they can be sure it works then.

It is revealing that they even don’t do that. Instead, they say explicitly “we implemented something but even ourself don’t know what you need to buy to get it working”. That maybe acceptable fore some Kosmos Radio Experimenting set aimed at 14 year old pupils starting their Nerd Career, it definitely is not at all for professional Audio Gear.

[DilettantParticipant]

USB is a big part of the problem.
How all the players implemented their part of the eventual USB device is part of the problem.
The Qu/SQ drive uses a USB device

That is a lame excuse, not more.

USB Storage Protocol is well documented and can be implemented absolutely without such an epic fail. The Linux kernel developers could do that, BSD Developers could do that, Mac Developers could do that, Windows developers could do that. There are plenty of obviously much better working USB Storage Host implemetations out there including car radios, photo cameras and even some audio recorders. And piles of free software that can be used for this.

So it _is_ possible to do that right. It has just not been done (yet) on the SQ Mixers.

[DilettantParticipant]

ure sounds like you are talking about usb and audio to me.

Not at all. We talk about Qu/SQ Drive, don’t we?

That means, we talk about storing Scene and Audio Track Data on an USB Storage device like a thumb drive, an usb disk or any other Mass Storage media connected via USB to a A&H Qu or SQ Series Mixer.

Absolutely none of these devices on the whole Planet implements USB Audio spcification which is defined as USB Device class 01h (Audio Interface) or 10h (Audio or Video Streaming device). You cannot buy any USB Disk or Stick working as USB Class 01h or 10h on the whole planet. Because that would not make any sense.

The only thing these devices can work as at all is USB Class 08h (Mass Storage). So if A&H wants to write anything on them at all, that and nothing other is what they have to implement.

Read the USB Specifications for USB devices of Class 08h. Show me a single sentence there that mentions audio in another meaning than “any data, for example audio”. Show a single function in that Standard that is made explicitly for Audio. Just try it. You won’t find one. None. Nada. Nothing.

The correct Specification is here:
https://www.usb.org/document-library/mass-storage-class-specification-overview-14

Nevertheless it keeps an ugly protocol having some Subsets. For example, there are several sub protocols for storage called BOT and UASP. A&H could have decided to implement only BOT but that would be a bad Idea since BOT has limited transfer bandwidth by Definition.

They also could have implemented only a Subset of UAS, but then

Since there is no information about the implemented Subset, a customer may absolutely legitimately assume they made a complete implementation. If not, their Implementation is nothing other than broken, not “mutually incompatible”, just broken. Maybe incomplete, but that is just another word for broken.

[DilettantParticipant]

Read the USB web site and what they said about audio compatibility across the various versions.

I won’t. We are not talking about USB Audio here. SQ Drive is an USB Mass Storage Implementation so we have to talk about Mass Storage. There is absolutely nothing said about audio compatibility in the USB Mass Storage descriptions since that is about storing (any kind of) Data, not (explicitly) Audio.

[DilettantParticipant]

Just one more point:

and the problem was at a meta level with defining USB and how it works with audio

No, it was not. The Problem here has absolutely nothing to do with USB Audio. We are talking about USB Mass Storage specifications here, nothing else.

The USB device used for SQ Drive (or Qu Drive) must not know anything about audio at all (no known USB thumb Drive implements the USB Audio subset as far as i know), it simple stores (or better: should store) Data into files. If that Data is audio, video or foot powder sales statistics makes no difference for that device. It is the mixer or any other Software accessing the files latger that interprets it as Audio, not the Stick and not USB.

[DilettantParticipant]

I would look at it as they are merely mutually incompatible

I beg to differ.

That Disk is an USB Drive. It is reported as conforming to USB Mass Storage Standards by its Manufacturer and that was verified with 2 different Operating Systems. It can flawlessly be used on both without any problem for data storage. Any analyzing tool did not show up any violation of USB Standards by that disk up to now (and i would bet it even works on a Mac, on a *BSD Computer or on any other correctly implemented Device that can use USB Storage).

It is also clearly not too slow or in any other kind too restricted to do Multitracking with that amount of data, as that was proven by doing it on a DAW with a Notebook – and i have to state there: even with a SYNC Mount, e.g. no write Buffers on the OS Level for the Filesystem, and slow USB 2.0 connection.

So as far as we know there is absolutely nothing wrong with that disk. It is a perfectly working USB device. There is no evidence it has any product failure at all.

OTOH, A&H claims to be able to multitrack to USB2 Mass Storage devices in the Product Description. “USB”, not “something similar like USB”, “some weird subset of USB nobody really knows” or “USB Devices implementing a specific subset of USB”.

I am sure, they must even have certified their device to conform to USB Standards since if they didn’t it would not be allowed to them to use the USB Branding Marks and Logos for it by national and international law.

The USB Standard Specification was made to make shure, any correctly implemented USB device can work with any other correctly implemented class-compliant USB device. And that was verified in a broad manner of ways from formal analysis to practical tests – not least years of using working USB devices in the whole world. Such a thing as “mutual incompatibility” simply cannot exist on that by Definition. At least one of the communicating devices _is_ violating USB standards (maybe both) and if it does so, it _is_ a broken product. Period.

All propabilities we have up to now tend by far that the broken device is not the Disk.

[Author]

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