PFL and AMM signal flow issues

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This topic contains 15 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Yann Yann 2 weeks, 2 days ago.

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  • #99018
    Profile photo of Carl N
    Carl N
    Participant

    Hi!

    There’s an old post about this in the troubleshooting section and it was suggested that one be created here also, but I can’t find one so I’m posting it myself.

    The AMM is great but it’s in the wrong point of the signal chain. When AMM is active I can’t PFL a channel that’s muted, and even when the channel is unmuted I can’t see any metering until the fader is up. This makes it almost completely impractical for TV work where I need to PFL mic’s before they go live. The only solutions I can see is to constantly add and remove mics from the automix just to PFL them, which is very clunky. Or double patch and gang every mic, which is even worse. Please change the AMM signal flow or at least make it configurable so we can meter and PFL mics easily.

    #99027
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    it sounds like you are using AFL in the inputs or your PFL source is set after the AMM
    set it to Post Preamp

    #99036
    Profile photo of Europe
    Europe
    Participant

    Doesn’t change the meter point though…..if a channel is assigned to an AMM there is no way of metering it.

    #99059
    Profile photo of Carl N
    Carl N
    Participant

    @SteffenR PFL post preamp is not suitable as I need to eq the mic while I’m PFL’ing. I think the only complete solution to the issue is for the AMM point to be configurable in the signal chain. Open to other suggestions though.

    This is such a perfect little desk for smaller broadcast jobs but in its current state the AMM is near useless, which seems like such a waste of potential.

    #99078
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    This is such a perfect little desk for smaller broadcast jobs but in its current state the AMM is near useless, which seems like such a waste of potential.

    as the name implies it is an automated mixer… it affects the gain of the channel directly with an extra gain stage…

    So why do you need to change the EQ of the signals?
    This should be done before you turn on the AMM.

    #99107
    Profile photo of Carl N
    Carl N
    Participant

    @SteffenR As I suggested earlier, constantly adding and removing mics from the automix just so I can PFL them is tedious and impractical. No respectable automix implementation works this way. PFLing a muted mic while it’s part of an automix is a task performed many times a day in a broadcast environment.

    #99109
    Profile photo of Carl N
    Carl N
    Participant

    Basically what I’m asking is to have the same options that were added to dLive, so the metering point and PFL point can be chosen specifically for AMM channels

    #99110
    Profile photo of conrad
    conrad
    Participant

    +1

    You can PFL a channel even when it is muted with the Mute key.
    It would seem logical to be able to PFL a channel when it has been muted by the AMM.

    I have been caught out by this a few times, thinking that the mic was not working.

    #99225
    Profile photo of DanielK
    DanielK
    Participant

    +1

    I have the same issue when in theatre/musical/play actors are off stage. I want to check if their wireless mic is working before they join the scene

    #100054
    Profile photo of Carl N
    Carl N
    Participant

    I’ve just spent a long week on a Yamaha QL1 for a bunch of broadcast work and as much as I was frustrated by some of the QL’s bus architecture limitations compared to the SQ, I was so happy to be able to use the AMM function in a proper post-fader setup. It’s a small but important difference that the A+H implementation is pre-fade but with a “fader follow” mode. It works but is clunky, and it is far inferior to simply being able to move the AMM (or any insert for that matter) pre-fade or post-fade.

    Just to be clear here, the SQ is almost half the RRP of a QL, yet is superior in many ways for broadcast work. The bus architecture and implementation of groups is a perfect example. That’s a major achievement by Allen + Heath, but this AMM limitation is a major stumbling block that I think is stopping the SQ from being a staple with small OB setups where you often see QL/CL or SD consoles.

    #100702
    Profile photo of TheOtherPhillip
    TheOtherPhillip
    Participant

    I couldn’t agree more with these posts. No other desk – Yamaha, etc., behaves this way. Remember that the automixer should behave as a post fader insert (original Dugan automixers were inserts on each channel), and the PFL is obviously pre fader. It makes no sense that we can’t PFL an input that is being automixed. I consider this a bug, not a feature request.

    Thanks to the original poster for authoring this post.

    #100885
    Profile photo of Adam
    Adam
    Participant

    +1 – Saw Keith’s post on Facebook
    Definitely need changing…………….please !

    #100913
    Profile photo of Europe
    Europe
    Participant

    A work around ( using a Dante Card ) is to use two channels that are daisychained, so mic is fed into channel 1, then post fade direct out is routed to a Dante output which is looped back into channel 16 which has the AMM inserted, gives you the ability to have the PFL and meters where they should be in the signal path ( also the added bonus of two inset points if needed ). It’s not ideal but does work better than not being able to use the AMM at all in it’s current position.

    I do find the AMM a bit chattery in quiet moments, not quite as good as a Dugan, but for the cost of the console it’s an incredible piece of kit.

    I’m sure A&H will be looking at options for the AMM position but I suspect the DSP to move the AMM is more complicated than it would be in the analogue world. I often find what I would consider simple suggestions are often met with horror by programmers, as they understand the DSP implications of my ‘simple’ suggestion!

    #100917
    Profile photo of tourtelot
    tourtelot
    Participant

    Certainly good to bring this to the attention of the tech folks at A&H. It would be an important addition as well as making the SQ line a hot contender for broadcast (and especially remote truck) applications.

    D.

    #100928
    Profile photo of JR Richardson
    JR Richardson
    Participant

    +1 yes please!

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