This topic contains 9 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of hydrus hydrus 7 years, 4 months ago.

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    Profile photo of hydrus

    There’s some good argumentation to be found for the reason PAFL is implemented the way it is.
    But I’ve got a few arguments for at least giving the option for doing it different tough.

    The QU is a great desk for monitor duty with all its inputs immediately available at the surface.
    There is however an awful limitation built in, limited routing options for the PAFL bus.

    PAFL is post PEQ & GEQ on the mixes of the QU, and there’s no EQ on the PAFL bus.
    So when an engineer PAFL’s a channel he really hears the raw channel without any EQ (except for the channel EQ) on his wedge.

    When you have wedges with good speaker processors that’s usually not a problem.
    But in this segment of the business this often isn’t the case and a little bit more work on the output EQ is needed to make the musicians wedges sound good.

    No problem, after you’ve done the EQ on stage with a single wedge you can copy the EQ to the other wedges, EXCEPT your own..

    Shouldn’t the desk be able to PAFL Pre EQ on the outputs and insert an EQ on the PAFL bus, or route the PAFL to a matrix so we have the same processing as a normal mix has.

    This way when an engineer PAFL’s a channel during a sound check there is an EQ applied to the wedge of the engineer which makes the channel sound the way it would when sent to the musicians wedge.

    Dear Allen & Heath, please keep making the technicians happy so we can make the musicians happy. Thank you!

    Profile photo of hydrus

    I’ve just thought about a second case where I could use EQ on the PAFL bus, on FOH duty this time:

    The beginning of next July we’ll be doing a festival in our town on a big square with 2 opposing stages. We will do line checks while the other stage is playing but we’d like to keep the soundcheck as short as possible.

    To help do this we were thinking to put some delay/monitor speakers inside our FOH tent.

    So we could soundcheck some of the instruments and vocals at low volume in our FOH tent while the opposing stage is playing (The FOH tent for both stages is not shared)

    Without EQ on the PAFL is not so fun.
    Doable but I’d better look for an extra box to put between the console and the FOH delays/monitors.

    Profile photo of

    Hmmm Re: original first post
    Have you looked at all of the options here?
    We have used the QU as monitor desks for a few years now using the 16 and 32 very sucessfully.
    I know there is only one PAFL bus…
    I’m sure you can PFL a channel strip.. [pre or post EQ. you can always turn off the EQ indivually] send it to a mix buss and then listen back to each individual mixs’ POST to hear exactly what they are hearing except you as a Mon engineer are in a different air space.
    Unfortunately I’m in studio and cant get acess to my QU16s easily.

    Profile photo of hydrus

    That’s not what I ment, you are talking channel EQ I am talking output EQ (what in analog time was a rack full of graphic EQ’s in monitor world, also for the engineer’s wedge)

    When you PAFL a channel and adjust the EQ on the channel to sound good in your wedge, you’ll get a different sound out of the musicians wedge. When you PAFL the musicians wedge you’ll get the same sound. (because that PAFL is post output EQ of that mix)

    When you PAFL a channel you don’t get any output EQ on your wedge, only the channel EQ which can give you a wrong image of the sound of that channel.

    Profile photo of

    Yup correct.
    So you are talking ALT out has no EQ as like a monitor wedge as per the musician EQ on stage?
    Yes and you cannot have a whole lot of different EQs sitting there waiting.
    But then surely you would listen back Post EQ to their mix and adjust ?
    I dont know of any desk that would do that?
    You could probably program a computer to do that.
    However I guess there must be something out there way up in the more expensives desks?
    I dont know of any old analogue desks that would do that either.
    Because that would be like having to have 2 EQs mixer and then second EQ only on the PFL bus?

    The QU is pretty good value for the money!
    I have run 2 desks side by side with the Mix outs going flat to the second desk solely to monitor the musicians audio mix.


    Profile photo of [XAP]Bob

    The PAFL has an A in it as well, post fade mixes don’t want additional eq in general.

    Is there a tap point choice for PAFL?

    Profile photo of

    Yes yes yes the missed A
    It was .. most of the time called either PFL AFL or Solo in place.
    The PAFL was quite new to me when I first collected and studied the QU.
    There are lots of variables to what hydrus [with that cute litte motor cycle] is asking for.
    I’m assuming the hydrus is wanting both to PFL and also AFL before and after EQ to the mix

    Profile photo of hydrus

    What I’d like is that I don’t need to gues what a channel wil sound like in the mix output while PFL’ing a channel.

    You can do this with any analog console with outboard GEQ just by changing your routing. (= cabling)

    outputs of the console > inputs GEQ > GEQ > outputs GEQ > inputs amps

    You could do the same with a QU by taking a GEQ rack with you but that’s against the purpose of chosing a small digital console with built in DSP PEQ and GEQ on the busses.

    I have no doubt the QU is a great desk and good value for money.
    I’ve had a few demo’s and as a monitor console I like it more then the GLD (which I like a lot for FOH)

    At the moment we use a A&H GL4 as a monitor desk and while it does the job great, changing to a QU would save space and weight. (we use the GEQ on the output of the GL4 by the way, not on inserts because our wedges need quite a bit EQ to sound good)

    With the midas Pro2C in the theatre where I work you can chose to not insert your GEQ on the bus but have it sit on the output and route the output of the (built in DSP, not ourtboard) GEQ to an XLR somewhere on your system.

    I would understand it if A&H would not implement this feature because advanced* routing like this could be a selling point for more expensive consoles in their range but I would find it a missed oppurtunity.

    * In analog times this really isn’t that advanced: it’s 10 XLR cables instead of insert cables in our GL4 setup.

    Profile photo of airickess

    What type of matrix or group routing can be done on the Qu 24 or 36? Can the PAFL bus be routed to some other output besides ALT Out? If so, that might give the needed EQ for hydrus.
    FYI, he wants to match the PAFL wedge EQ with the same EQ curve that is applied to the stage wedges. That gives the monitor engineer a better sense of the sound coming out of the stage wedges and can help him hear what the performers are hearing.

    Profile photo of hydrus

    NZdave already asked for routing the PAFL bus to a matrix in another topic a few lines lower (for studio use)
    This would be a great part of the solution for my problem. (but would not solve it completely)
    There wouldn’t be any DSP added to the QU (you’d use the DSP of a matrix) so it does stay ‘limited’ in options compared to bigger desks.

    BUT! when you have EQ on the PAFL bus you want the PAFL of any Mix bus to tap of PRE that bus’s EQ.
    Now you can only choose pre or after the fader (hence the P & the A in PAFL)
    Otherwise you would stack / daisychain PAFL EQ and Mix bus EQ.

    As it is now you do hear what the performers are hearing when you PAFL a mix bus = good
    But when you PAFL an input channel and start working that channel’s EQ (as you would during soundcheck) you could be miles of when the mix bus EQ gets a little bit funky = bad

    It’s purely a routing thing which was easy to change in analog days but in digital domain it’s all up to the goodwill of A&H if they see the point in adding this option.

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