Local IO from surfaces be able to Dante Clock Sync

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This topic contains 27 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Brian Brian 1 week, 4 days ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 16 through 28 (of 28 total)
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  • #110988
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    Your point is senseless…
    It is simply not possible. The system is designed different.
    I told you this, three times.

    #110989
    Profile photo of Nicola A&H
    Nicola A&H
    Keymaster

    I’ve already answered the other thread but essentially, this is not possible without a fundamental rewrite of the dLive architecture. It is not just a problem of clock source. All Surface I/O (including the I/O Ports) is simply sent to / received from the MixRack engine. The Surface doesn’t really handle audio from the I/O Port other than sending it to the MixRack. You can think of the Surface I/O Ports as additional MixRack I/O Ports (which is why they are labelled 4 and 5), they simply happen to be in another physical location.
    Also, the main gigaACE link is designed with enough bandwidth to transport ALL Surface I/O (including the I/O Ports) to/from the MixRack, this can easily exceed the 128ch limitation of each I/O Port. Another reason why enabling a MixRack to Surface link over a Dante card would prove problematic.

    #110991
    Profile photo of JMaya
    JMaya
    Participant

    Hi Nicola ; yes I already understand that…my suggestion is, the same way you make a C1500 lighter to travel (Ti)….why not make a version of C1500 without gigaACE and only with Dante / analogue 8in/outs and phones ……this will me grate for guys like me that have fixed installations .

    #110993
    Profile photo of msteel
    msteel
    Participant

    JMaya,

    SteffenR is correct. The entire dLive system is based on having a GigaACE link between the Mix Rack and surface. I do not know the internal architecture of the surface, but I know from observation that the surface does not actually do any routing. All the surface I/O (whether analog, AES, card slot ports, DX) has a fixed mapping to/from a predetermined channel on the GigaACE link. These GigaACE channels are then routed in the Mix Rack to/from other Mix Rack I/O – whether to local analog I/O. a card slot, or a surface via a GigaACE link. It is not just about surface clocking. The GigaACE link is assumed. It is a central element in the design of the system.

    If you absolutely must us a dLive system, then you have been given at least two ways to use GigaACE to accomplish what you say you want to do.
    If you must use dLive, and you cannot/will not use GigaACE, then here is one more option:
    * Use the surface without GigaACE, and without audio, for control only.
    * Instead of using a Dante card in the surface, use a separate Dante interface (or maybe more than one if needed) for whatever audio needs you have at the mix position. For example the DT168 would give you 16 preamps, controllable from the surface (probably, unless that capability relies on the GigaACE link) and 8 analog outputs. More than any C class surface. At a cost similar to the Dante64 card. Headphones and/or AES would be an issue, but one that could be solved.

    #110995
    Profile photo of JMaya
    JMaya
    Participant

    Hi mstel;

    All you say I already realise , and for that ….is the big limitation….why the hell dont H&A just make the surface local in/outs be like a stage DT168 or DX168 but with just the in/outs they have now (6 in/outs analogue + aesebu and phones) ….:(

    #111038
    Profile photo of Dave
    Dave
    Participant

    The surface does nothing without the mixrack.
    No routing, no processing, nothing.
    And the system is build around the GigaACE connection.

    I think he’s asking for a version of a surface that’s essentially running Director, with only the “network” connection for control and metering, and happens to also have Dante ports for local audio I/O. Personally, I don’t see the point (unless it ends up being way cheaper, in which case I want one as a sidecar), but I think that’s what he’s trying to do.

    #111041
    Profile photo of JMaya
    JMaya
    Participant

    Hi Dave….yes you are right….I dont need gigaACE on the surface for nothing…..and in fixed installations this will be a dream can true….all the ecosystem I have is based in DANTE…. I use DM0 with a DANTE128 card and with Dante stages….. all my speakers are Dante, all my wireless microfones are Dante, …..all my interfaces and sources are Dante…My Surface is allways changing place of operation and the only thing we need to connect is a Power cable and a Fiberoptic that carry all the VLAN we use (Control, Dante, Artnet, NDI,) …. So I have 6 Analogue IN/OUTs and phones on the Surface that I cant use…..:( I have to add to my working area a phones amp with dante and a dante neutrik interface to have 2ins and 2 outs for stuff I need to connect….

    #111064
    Profile photo of Brian
    Brian
    Participant

    Hi SteffenR;

    I know that….I think you still dont understand my point.

    Best Regards
    Joao Maya

    You are just going to have to accept that you cannot and will never be able to connect a surface to a mixrack via Dante.

    There is far more data being passed between the two devices than just audio data (which is all that Dante does). Without this extra data, the surface simply doesn’t work. All of this communication is also only done over Gigaace connections which is a proprietary protocol from A&H. There will not be another manufacturer producing Gigaace compatible devices due to the proprietary nature of the system unless A&H grants a license to do so (something I wouldn’t expect them to do).

    Also, I hope you understand that you don’t need Dante cards in both the surface and the mixrack to integrate Dante into the system. You can have the card in either of the devices and any I/O on both devices will be available on the Dante network. Once again, it is the Gigaace connection that would pass the audio information from the device without the Dante card to the device with the Dante card

    #111068
    Profile photo of Brian
    Brian
    Participant

    Hi Dave….yes you are right….I dont need gigaACE on the surface for nothing…..and in fixed installations this will be a dream can true….all the ecosystem I have is based in DANTE…. I use DM0 with a DANTE128 card and with Dante stages….. all my speakers are Dante, all my wireless microfones are Dante, …..all my interfaces and sources are Dante…My Surface is allways changing place of operation and the only thing we need to connect is a Power cable and a Fiberoptic that carry all the VLAN we use (Control, Dante, Artnet, NDI,) …. So I have 6 Analogue IN/OUTs and phones on the Surface that I cant use…..:( I have to add to my working area a phones amp with dante and a dante neutrik interface to have 2ins and 2 outs for stuff I need to connect….

    First, apparently I didn’t go to the last page before I posted the comment directly above….. Obviously some of what I said was previously hashed out and I simply missed those posts. I apologize for that oversight on my part.

    Second, Joao – if you want a more portable “surface” without needing a Gigaace connector, there are solutions out there. Basically a combination of a computer with a touchscreen (running Director and/or other software) and a motorized midi fader controller might give you what your are wanting.

    With the cost of surfaces through the roof right now, I would be really tempted to go “surfaceless” myself and get a computer set up with a touchscreen and a WaveFit controller. You can run the Director and/or Mixing Station software on that computer and basically have a Wave LV1 style “surface”. It would cost less than 2k USD to set that up (Fit controller = $1200, touchscreen = $350, computer = $250). Of course there is no local I/O in that solution, but as you already noted there are Dante I/O solutions if you really needed some local I/O.

    That being said, it sounds like you already purchased the surface and are simply upset that you have to connect it to the mixrack using the proprietary Gigaace connections. I’m sorry that you find yourself in this situation, but it’s not Allen and Heath’s fault that you didn’t do your due diligence prior to purchase. This is a pretty basic premise of the entire ecosystem and it’s not something that Allen and Heath is trying to hide. Honestly I’m not sure how you misunderstood such a basic concept of the system. It’s obvious that you didn’t ask anyone (Allen and Heath or a local integrator) for assistance when spec-ing out the system or this misunderstanding would have been uncovered on day 1 of the design process.

    PS – you could also add another pair of fiber cables and connect Gigaace to the mixrack that way too you know. (Not through your network switch, but a direct connection to the mixrack).

    #111072
    Profile photo of JMaya
    JMaya
    Participant

    Hi Brian;

    I dont want I portable System, and I dont are regret of buying the C1500, it is excellent controller and if I dont need the local IN/OUT I can use it with a normal ethernet connection on the C1500.

    My case is ( and I am not the only one) a fixed installation in a auditorium here the C1500 is connected to the network infrastructure and the MIXRack (DM0) it is installed in a technical room very fair from the stage and all the stages boxes are DANTE. On the technical I have a computer with a rednet card and SuperTack with Waves PLugin and I can control them were the C1500 is because I have a small computer with team viewer connect to the SuperRack , so everything runs on DANTE very nice.

    I just sorry that can use the 6 analogue IN/OUt’s on the C1500 because they just can be used with a gigaAce cable connected ….I dont need the 300 channels performence of gigaAce on the C1500… just the 6 channels something that can be resolved with a special card that converted them direct to dante…

    I this moment I have the problem resolved with two dante interfaces….one from Sonifex for headphone amplification and one from neutrik for one pair of of analogue. in/outs…

    #111086
    Profile photo of Brian
    Brian
    Participant

    Have you thought about putting the DM0 out at the FOH position? If all of your stage boxes are Dante, it sounds like you connect the DM0 into the system over Dante anyway and aren’t using any DX ports on the DM0. If this is the case, then you should still be able to run a single Dante connection out to FOH and plug it into the DM0. Then connect the DM0 to the C1500 via the built in Gigaace ports and you’ll have a normal surface with working I/O. With both the mixrack and surface at FOH those Gigaace connections are going to be very short (maybe 5′) so there is no excuse not to connect them together.

    #111087
    Profile photo of JMaya
    JMaya
    Participant

    Hi Brian;

    No way , the DM0 is on a climatize technical room with other several gear (Video , light a and all IT stuff) and some times the table were is C1500 dont existe and everything is control by ipad.

    The venue in one day can been done one concert , the other day a dance perfomence and the other day a corporate ….must be very flexible and some times everything is just controlled with a ipad

    #111120
    Profile photo of Brian
    Brian
    Participant

    OK. I can understand why you can’t leave it at FOH all the time.

    I guess the real point of my last post was to remind you that you can literally put the DM0 anywhere – especially if your only connections to it are power and a Dante network cable. Currently you have the DM0 in some far off location where it is problematic to run a cable to connect the surface to it. If you move the DM0 somewhere closer, it may be much easier to run a cable out to the surface. Or leave it somewhere else out of the way and only bring it out to FOH when you have a big enough show that you need the surface.

    The major advantage of the DM0 is that is is small and light. It’s a 4u rack device that weights 27lbs. Stick it in a rack case and don’t be afraid to move it around as needed!

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