How would I set up this routing?

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of smorgan223 smorgan223 8 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)
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  • #23394
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    Hello all,

    I use a GLD in a church and would like advice on the best way to set up subgroups and or matrixes (matricies?) to achieve the following.

    I want Drums (DRUMS), Instruments (INSTR) and Backing Vocals (BGVOX) in separate subgroups, preferably all in stereo but the drums could be mono. I want these groups to mix together in some sort of mix bus (BAND). I also want to route the lead vocal directly to (BAND). The only things I want in (BAND) are music inputs and FX returns. I then want to get (BAND) out to the PA somehow.

    I have two other types of input to deal with, speech (SPECH) and media playback (MEDIA). I also need to get these out to the PA.

    I don’t think I can assign more than one stereo mix out to a single pair of output sockets, so I ultimately need to send (BAND) (SPECH) and (MEDIA) through some sort of mix bus.

    The best thing I can think to do is to have 3 stereo subgroups (DRUMS), (INSTR), (BGVOX) routed to LR, along with the LDVOX input. LR would become (BAND) I would then send LR to a stereo matrix (FOHPA) and feed the PA from (FOHPA).

    The inputs from speech and media could be subgrouped as (SPECH) and (MEDIA),or not, and routed to (FOHPA).

    Is this the best way to do this or is there a better way.

    Thanks for reading,

    Chris

    #31911
    Profile photo of gkhewitt
    gkhewitt
    Participant

    I think you may run into two problems:

    – you can’t route groups to other groups
    – you will run out of mixes if you try and do it using groups and then into matrices

    Is there a reason you need to subgroup the drums/instruments/vox before grouping them again to the band group? In our church application we route all instruments directly to the BAND group and then use DCAs to control levels of multiple inputs (so although all the routing is to the BAND group, we have granular control of drums, vocals etc via DCAs).

    Unless you need to do some processing or routing specifically on those sub-sub-groups, DCAs are your friend :-)

    #31913
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    I don’t really need to do it that way, but I’d like to if possible. The main reason is so that I could set up compressors on the groups to keep the mix together a bit more easily. Everything but the lead vocal would be compressed in sub groups, keeping the vocal on top. I could take a bit of high mid out of the INSTR group for vocal clarity etc.

    I don’t think I’m trying to route a group to a group, but I may have worded it so that it looked like I am. I actually tried that earlier tonight and came up with the above post as an alternative. “BAND” is actually LR, but renamed.

    I was planning on using DCA’s for level control on “groups” of inputs but I’d like to be able to do the compression thing. eg. more aggressive threshold on instruments than vox. It’s not at all an issue if I can’t but it may make it a bit easier to mix if I have to leave someone else to mix a music service. (or it may have the opposite effect [:I])

    I also need to do mixes for 4 monitor wedges, an overflow room and the USB recording. The overflow and recording could be fed from the same mix bus as the PA so that shouldn’t really be an issue.

    I’m only planning on using 3 mono FX sends buses and inserting anything else. eg reverb on BGV group. Which reminds me, I haven’t actually tried that, can you insert an FX processor on a group?

    To put all this in perspective less than 6 months ago we were using an 8 input analog console with no outboard, and it sort of worked. [:D]
    We wern’t really doing any music though, so no wedges, and not feeding the overflow room.

    [:)]

    Thanks,

    Chris

    #31957
    Profile photo of smorgan223
    smorgan223
    Participant

    Ok, I spent a little time looking at your situation. While I don’t actually have a GLD-80 Console (we are looking to get one), I have played with the iLive software enough to understand how it divides out the busses and mix outputs. With that said, you have enough mixes and busses to do what you are planning to do with some modification. Here is what I recommend to you.

    First, the LR Main is basically a Stereo Group, so I would just leave it labled as LR. You can lable it BAND if you desire, but I think that would be more confusing than helpful. Here is how I would layout your buss structure (NOTE: This is simply my outside look at your situation). I have also included a Buss/Mix Out countdown so you can see how many you have at each stage.

    LR (or BAND if you prefer) 28 Busses & 18 Mix Outputs

    ST SUB GROUPS:
    DRUMS 26 Busses & 16 Mix Outputs
    INSTRUMENTS 24 Busses & 14 Mix Outputs
    BGVOX 22 Busses & 12 Mix Outputs

    ST MATRICES:
    FOHPA 22 Busses & 10 Mix Outputs
    OVERFLOW 22 Busses & 8 Mix Outputs

    MONO AUXES:
    WDG1 21 Busses & 7 Mix Outputs
    WDG2 20 Busses & 6 Mix Outputs
    WDG3 19 Busses & 5 Mix Outputs
    WDG4 18 Busses & 4 Mix Outputs
    SUBS 17 Busses & 3 Mix Outputs
    AUX6 16 Busses & 2 Mix Outputs

    ST FX: (Only if you want to use it this way. Mono works too, but you will be left with an unused FX Send)
    FX1 14 Busses & 2 Mix Outputs
    FX2 12 Busses & 2 Mix Outputs
    FX3 10 Busses & 2 Mix Outputs

    DCAs:
    1. DRUMS (Assign DRUMS Sub Group)
    2. INSTRUMENTS (Assign INSTRUMENTS Sub Group)
    3. BAND ALL (Assign DRUMS and INSTRUMENTS Sub Groups)
    4. LDVOX (Assign LDVOX Channel)
    5. BGVS (Assign BGVOX Sub Group)
    6. SPEECH (Assign Pastor/Speech Channel(s))
    7. MEDIA (Assign Media Channel(s))
    8. LR/SUB (Assign FOHPA Matrix Master and SUB Aux Master. This will allow you to have one-fader control on the main and subs together).

    As far as inserting FX on a Sub Group, iLive allows you to do it. So, I can only assume GLD will as well since they are basically built on the same platform. Don’t quote me on that. You will need to play around in the console to see if it’s possible.

    Hope this helps! Anyone reading this…If you see where I have made a mistake, please let me know. Like I said, I do not own a GLD-80, but we are looking to get one for our youth worship room soon. The only time I have looked at the surface in person was at WFX this year.

    Thanks,
    Scott Morgan

    #31959
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    Thanks for taking the time to do that Scott. [:)] At a quick glance it seems pretty good. I’m heading out soon so I’ll take a better look at it later on.

    Chris

    #31974
    Profile photo of smorgan223
    smorgan223
    Participant

    Chris,

    Glad to do it! Let me know if it works for you.

    Thanks,
    Scott Morgan

    #31988
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    That looks like it will do the job Scott, I’ll be able to set that up on the console tomorrow night if it works out.

    (Hint: This is why we need an editor) [;)]

    What I would like to do for the overflow/recording Matrix mix is to have a room mic come up in this mix whenever the band is playing. This is to get congregation singing into the mix. My idea for doing this is to assign the room mic to the matrix post fader and assign the room mic input fader to the same DCA as the band group (LR). Ganging would work too but I would have no relative level control between band and room.

    Is it possible to assign a DCA to just a bus send from an input rather than the actual input? Eg. have a DCA that turns up the lead vocal in the Delay send mix but not in FOH.

    Thanks,

    Chris [:)]

    #32004
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    I ran into an interesting problem trying to route:

    INPUT > GROUP > LR > MATRIX,

    Assigning an input to the matrix will also assign it to LR, and vice versa. Am I doing something wrong in my attempts to assign this or is it supposed to work like this?

    I currently have it set up with 5 stereo subgroups, 2 stereo matricies and 2 mono matrices. No LR needed. [:)]

    Chris

    #32055
    Profile photo of smorgan223
    smorgan223
    Participant

    I’m glad that the setup looks like it will do the trick! I was glad to help out. Now, regarding your question about the Room Mic. First, you can’t assign an input channel directly to a Matrix, to my knowledge, without assigning it to a Sub-Group first. This is a function that is available on some of the higher end consoles, but I know iLive will not even accomodate sending an input directly to a Matrix. Second, it is possible to assign a DCA to a Sub-Group/FX Send/FX Return instead of assigning it directly to the input channel. You have 16 DCAs, so the possibilities are endless.

    I would like to help you as much as I can with your setup remembering I have limited knowledge about the console; this will be a great opportunity for knowledge sharing. Would it be possible for you to post your setup (i.e. what groups, matricies, FX sends, AUX sends, etc. you have) so I can see how you are routing things. You don’t have to post your input list unless you just want to.

    I know that there is not an editor for the GLD-80 specifically, but you can use the iLive Editor to your advantage when it comes to trying different setups. It’s close enough to the GLD setup. You just have to remember you only have 30 mix busses and 20 mix outputs when you do your console setup in the editor. The iLive has a few more mix busses and mix outputs than the GLD.

    Scott

    #32076
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    The GLD seems to be able to assign an input directly to a matrix, I’ll confirm this next time I’m down. I’m currently using a DCA in the way you describe, I have it assigned to the delay send master.

    I think I used:
    5 stereo groups (drums, instruments, vocals, speech, media)
    4 mono auxes (monitor wedges)
    2 stereo matrix (PA, overflow room)
    2 mono matrix (T-loop, spare)
    Can’t remember FX, probably whatever mix buses were left over.

    We’re still in the middle of the upgrade so there isn’t really a regular input list yet.

    I’d attach my show file if there was a way to. [:)]
    That could be a cool addition to the forum actually, being able to do that… [8D]

    My email address is uxtxixlxixkxexyx@gmail.com without the x’s. If you email me I can reply and attach the show file.

    Chris

    #32090
    Profile photo of smorgan223
    smorgan223
    Participant

    I’ve been pouring over the block diagram for the GLD, and I don’t see any provision for sending a channel (via assignment) directly to a matrix. The only way I can see it’s possible is through inserting it in the matrix or patching it in through the external input. Also, I see that you have the Main set to “None”, which is typically reserved for using the console to run monitors. Are you able to pan your channels without there being an LR buss in place? Where are your FX returning to, and how are you routing them to the PA and Overflow Matrices?

    Thanks for giving me your email, but I don’t have any way of looking at the show file until an editor is created. I don’t actually have a console yet, and it will be some time before that materializes. Also, please don’t think I am trying to tear your setup apart, I’m trying to learn right along with you about the different ways to set this console up.[:)] I know that workflows tend to be different from one audio guy to the next depending on their needs.

    Thanks,
    Scott

    #32097
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    It’s a bit confusing about the matrix. You can’t do it but it makes it look like you can. If you have LR “MIX”ed and then you “MIX” a matrix, the assign function on the inputs (hold assign and press mix) remains functional for LR. I’d have assumed that if you’ve “MIX”ed a matrix you would be seeing assigns to that matrix, but apparently not…

    I found this out using the editor, thanks for that tip. [8D]

    I’m currently just using inputs, groups, LR and it’s working fine. It’s probably going to be a lot easier if I just use LR for it’s intended function. [:I]

    Current plan is to not do the overall band group as it will make things much easier. I’ll run all the music through groups, and maybe speech too, media can go straight to LR.

    This will be LR MIX. I’ll feed the left and right of the PA from a matrix creatively named PA LR. I’ll do any GEQ etc. for the PA on that matrix so I can send a non GEQ’d version to the recording, overflow room etc.

    I’ll have a play around in the editor with setting up the “automatic room mic when band plays” thing.

    Chris

    #32098
    Profile photo of smorgan223
    smorgan223
    Participant

    No problem about the editor tip. Glad to help a fellow Church Audio Engineer.

    I have a learned a basic rule of thumb when it comes to sub-grouping things on the iLive or GLD. Because you only have so many mix outputs, I have bent to just grouping things that you would process as a group like drums, guitars or vocals. Here is kind of the setup I have planned for my console when we get it for our new youth worship room.

    INPUTS LIST:
    1-6 – Drum Kit
    7 – Drum Loop
    8-10 – Percussion
    11 – Bass
    12-13 – Electrics
    14-15 – Acoustics
    16-17 – Keys
    18 – Keytar
    19 – Lead Vocal
    20-21 – BGVs
    22 – Speaker
    23 – Wireless HH
    45-46 – CD
    47-18 – PC

    I have exact duplicates (Shared Pre-Amps) of channels 1-16, 18-21, & 23 on channels 24-44 to set the monitors with so I can have separate channel processing for the monitors.

    ST SUB-GROUPS:
    1 – Drums
    2 – Electrics
    3 – Acoustics
    4 – Vocals

    Everything else gets assigned directly to LR.

    MONO AUXS (All Wedges):
    1 – Vocal 1
    2 – Vocal 2
    3 – Lead Gtr 1
    4 – Lead Gtr 2
    5 – Bass
    6 – Drums
    7 – Perc
    8 – Subs

    ST MATRIX:
    1 – LR (Fed from the Left/Right Main Buss)

    DCAS:
    1 – Drums
    2 – Perc
    3 – Bass
    4 – Electrics
    5 – Acoustics
    6 – Keys
    7 – Lead Vocal
    8 – BGVs
    9 – LR/Sub (To control the LR Matrix and Sub Aux on one fader)

    FX RACK:
    1 – Plate Vocal (Returned to IP FX 1)
    2 – ADT (Returned to IP FX 2)
    3 – ST Delay (Returned to IP FX 3)
    5 – Room Live Drums (Inserted on the Drums ST Group)
    8 – Beware Sub Harmonics (Dual Mono Inserted on the Kick (1) and Bass (11) channels)

    I got a good bit of the ideas for this setup from Robert Scovill of Avid. He has some really good live audio webinars on the Avid website about setting up FOH, FOH/MON, and MON show files. Of course he is using the Avid D-Show console, but some of the same things can apply to whatever console you are using. Just google Avid Live Audio Webinar Archive. You will have to sign up to be a member of the site, but you can say no to anyone contacting you.

    Let me know what you think of the setup.

    Scott

    #32099
    Profile photo of Chris93
    Chris93
    Participant

    That’s very close to what mine is turning out to be aswell. :)

    Is that ADT on a send for the weaker singers? [;)] I might have to try that.

    How do you normally set up sends to recordings and other rooms? My current idea is to feed the recording and the overflow room from the same stereo matrix. This would get the LR mix and the room mic “group” (only one input in this group but it’s the only way to get it to the mtx) I may put talkback in the other group if I want to talk to the overflow room and not the PA.

    In the UK we have to have an induction loop to provide a direct feed to hearing aids. I’m feeding this off a mono matrix because I doubt the people in the room want to hear the room mic :) I could get away with giving this one side of the LR if I was short on buses some day.

    http://www.healthyhearing.com/content/articles/Technology/T-coils/45927-Hearing-aids-in-loop

    Chris

    #32100
    Profile photo of smorgan223
    smorgan223
    Participant

    The ADT is a vocal doubler. Currently we use an MX200 (Dual FX Processor) from Lexicon for our FX processing with our Allen and Heath GL3 (REALLY OLD CONSOLE!!). I have it set up with a Plate on Processor One and a Chorus on Processor Two. This helps get the vocals out over the band. We have a really loud drummer, so the rest of the band has to be brought up to the level of the drummer.

    We won’t have to worry about sending to another room in the situation we will be in. We will be getting Dante with this console so we can multi-track record and playback for virtual soundcheck.

    I’m not sure what kind of instruments you have, but here is how I would Sub-Group in your situation.

    ST Sub-Groups 1-4 would be for the band (Drums, Guitars, Keys, Vocals perhaps)
    Mono Groups 1-2 would be for the Room Mic and for Speech if you desire.

    I would use a ST Matrix for your PA, and 2 Mono Matricies for your T-Loop and Overflow Room. The two Mono Matricies would receive a summed mix from your main Left/Right Buss since I can only assume these are both mono systems.

    I would personally send your speech and whatever doesn’t need to be grouped straight to LR. This keeps the complexity out of the system. Digital Consoles are complex enough in their own right, so the more basic the setup the better.

    Just my 2 pennies worth!

    Scott

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