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2019/07/18 at 3:48 pm #85325
@DickRees
A+H said to use parallel compression to achieve upwards compression in one of their responses to another thread here.
We do not have a spare channel that is needed to do it that way. Although we may have to give one up to achieve it if it is more important for people to understand the speaker than care about the music.
***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread*** We are not adapting studio to live sound. We are going to use the technique that works right for our problem. Just because you do not understand UPwards compression does not mean it is wrong.
There is NO diminished headroom.
***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread***Again you distort what I said. AMM was all new to me and I was trying to see if it could possibly be used to solve the problem when AH did not have an upwards compressor. Turns out we use those for the choir mikes so not available at all.
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We have a number of problems and side threads have arisen but the initial one was too much DR in the voices and the need for upwards compression to fix that problem. We have other problems , some fixed already, others being addressed , but the one of intelligibility due to speakers DR and the fact of the BG noise impact on intelligibility wrt average loudness needed.
note for idiots: speaker means person not the loudspeakers on the ceiling***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread***
2019/07/18 at 3:32 pm #85324I am sure there are a lot of old USB sticks that work great.
But I need to be able to go to the local store and buy what they are selling now, not waste my time on a scavenger hunt.
WHY wont the QU work with any standard USB? At least state what USB version is required, and then work right with it!
And if speed is an issue I could live with that problem, although it would be nicer if they had less channels and more convenience, at least for us.2019/07/16 at 12:43 am #85239I get it quite well.
You are saying things that no way relate to what I actually said. Non sequitur red herrings are not useful.
Yes a person whispering from a distance needs more systems gain, which is best done at the channel strip.
The best way to solve that problem is with UPwards compression. Raises the voice but does not lower gain before feedback.
One way, and there are others, to achieve that is with parallel compression which you may , or may not, have heard of.
That has been used for decades and is known to work.The dealer set up the system quite well.
The problem is understanding the voice of the folks speaking especially those with too much DR.I realise there are limits to what can be done but we have room to make that improvement to increase INTELLIGIBILITY.
No idea where you came up with the smooth jazz thing which is not what we are trying to do at all.Your questions are irrelevant. But if it will shut up the naysaysere: I am retired, EE degree, ABD math, PhD Computer Science, and worked as a systems engineer. And taught at 3 unis. And I can read and grok technical info quite well.
I am more than qualified to understand what is going on and what our options to improve things are.I have worked with recording since the 60s when I was a member of AES but did not pursue audio full time as a career.
I helped with a small Behringer analog board at my last church. We now just got a new digital AH board to use at our new church.
While I did not do media mastering, the personal work I have done with a DAW to edit mix and premaster is quite applicable.2019/07/16 at 12:28 am #85238@Dick Rees
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We have all the gain before feedback we need with the band screaming loud from the speakers on the ceiling.
There is NO problem with people talking louder or even UPcompressing soft talkers at all as they will never reach the same levels.***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread***
2019/07/13 at 8:38 pm #85176***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread***
2019/07/13 at 8:34 pm #85175gain before feedback will not change at all.
no feedback problem when they talk louder so no way for upwards compression to cause feedback at all.2019/07/13 at 8:29 pm #85174That is not the problem. Not exactly.
The problem is to get enough gain before feedback so the SPL from the room speakers is adequately higher than the BG noise.
UPwards compressing the voice input would help solve the problem.2019/07/13 at 1:44 am #85161Dont know (for sure) cant say
but… some clues….Our MD set it up using a mix channel for hearing assist.
He also has about a dozen mikes mixed that goes to stage monitors via 4 separate mix channels hardwired from the board via a snake. Those feed front wedges, back wedges by the choir, and smaller monitors for the piano, organ, and choir director, and one in the loft with the organ pipes.I presume that your mix would go to some broadcast type amplifer and then be received by the IEM users like our hearing assist ones do.
I would also think that they control their own from your basic feed. See the ads for the Behringer P1.
The info on the P1 shows they can control balance and volume.It also shows XLR connectors so that would imply they are wired to the board remotely not wirelessly like ours.
Read the reviews. P1 has a lot of negative ones. And it is NOT wireLESS which you might want for IEM onstage.
If they want to adjust EQ or other things I presume there might be some AH QUdoodad [Qu Pad, ME, ap,….]for their use similar to the Qu IPad gadget our MD has to do things like that. Else you have to adjust EQ and other things for them on the Qu32. We do not have any of those other devices so no idea what control they offer someone on stage.
2019/07/12 at 10:26 pm #85158Thanks. I do not recall seeing that in the users manual.
I will look at the parameters available. But it is TBD if I can edit their compression to do what I need from their parameters.
2019/07/12 at 9:13 pm #85155***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread***
This is not an operator problem at all.
***content removed – personal comment that does not contribute to the thread***
Sorry if I am a perfectionist but I am trying to make do with what the church has already bought.
Buying anything else is not an option.Our analog board is history. We are making do with the digital version now and any limitations it presents.
That does not mean that I should not ask for simple improvements that would be easy for AH to provide.2019/07/12 at 12:11 am #85129Above my pay grade to control the HVAC settings.
No noise in preacherman mike. Main guy works fine. It is fill ins and special outside talkers that are the problem.
On rare occasions he talks while there is music happening too. But that is an option we could consider.
No DAW at this time AFAIK. There is a PC attached used to run automatic slides, and hand controlled power points.
We also have a CD player that plays prerecorded music. And a stand alone CD burner capturing everything in RT.
The PC might on occasion be used to play music but I am unaware of that being relatively new here.
The MD did mention something about using USB to play music once we got a USB stick formatted yesterday. It was a small USB2.0 and would not be big enough for recording. Not sure if it is big enough for playback either. But it should work to back up the show scenes and other settings.Have not used reddit. Will check that link out. Thanks.
People have used upward compression for years. Usually they do it with parallel compression. I cannot find a spare channel to use to do that. Many people think parallel is the only way to do it so they call it parallel compression which it is but do not realise it is just one example of upwards compression.
2019/07/11 at 10:21 pm #85124Thanks. That might be what is needed. We were hoping to just use our Qu32 without buying more hardware.
Maybe when they upgrade mikes by next summer in 2020 we could get that type.
I had looked, not real hard yet, for mikes with built in AGC; but we may need to get external preamps to feed the channel strips.
2019/07/11 at 6:26 pm #85121wrt 3 points
Rare but not non existent. I could do it in software if AH had an SDK.
Parallel compression is the usual way to do it hence no big need for a device.
But an ap is easy and cheap.Noise is always an issue as is Gain before feedback.
Combined with the S/N needed for intelligibility the system must be set up carefully.I had initially computed we only needed 2:1 which is gentle.
Gate above the noise level, add 10dB make up gain and we achieved the optimum S/N for our level of BG noise.As to being needed, I disagree. Most churches need it as they all seem to have complaints that the sound is too low.
What they mean is they cant understand the preacherman. The audio folk say but half the people complain it is too loud.
They are ignorant andor confused. The music IS too loud. The voice is too soft. They need to apply upward compression on the voices and normal compression on the loud end. Then everybody in the audience would be happy.2019/07/11 at 5:41 pm #85120The A/C is controlled by a thermostat. The temperature is set to maintain a steady-ish comfortable level.
Turning it off when the room is full of people is a non starter.I hoped that we could gate the signal if needed and if the speakers (people talking) were loud enough that we could minimize the problem.
60db is what I measured at the point I listened. I presume it would be similar on stage. But the mike being directional may not pick up as much as the SPL meter. Maybe it is quieter on stage. I know it is touchy as when they boost the gain we run into feedback issues so there is limited fader changes that are feasible.The meter was not lab calibrated so is possibly high. We do not seem to be amplifying noise now but are NOT amplifying the speakers(people talking) enough when they are low. What we need is the output from the speakers (devices) on the ceiling to be about 15 dB above the background noise for maximum intelligibility.
From what I can read upwards compression would help us improve the intelligibility of the people talking into the mikes and avoid the complaints about things not being loud enough.
2019/07/11 at 2:07 pm #85115@SRD
Thanks considered that. But we have measured up to 60+dB SPL background noise. HVAC mostly. Audience could increase it some.
One problem we have is the wide DR of many speakers (people orating). Amateurs are bad but some of the ‘pros’ can be even worse. And gating could cut out low speakers intermittentlyWhat we really need is upwards compression so we can lift just the voices and let us mildly compress the high (SPL) end so it still sounds good.
I think I need to invent a mike that has built in AGC to help improve communications and intelligibility for users like us.
Actually I did. I guess I should patent it real fast:) -
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