[PeteParticipant]

Me too. Same guy.

[PeteParticipant]

You are, of course right. The first time I saw Copy, Cut, Paste was at the 1978 Telcom Expo in Geneva, Switzerland when it was demo’d to me on a Xerox PARC workstation.

Everybody else copied that idea and it has stuck since.

[PeteParticipant]

Thanks Bob. That bit I knew. I was just happily surprised when I discovered a Windows like clipboard that worked between scenes.

[PeteParticipant]

I agree with both of you that on a point to point network with only two nodes, collisions will not happen in this configuration. Collisions happen quite often on office and other facility LANs even with gigabit LANs if there are a lot of nodes and much traffic. I am sure that dSnake would not like sich collisions and may not know what to do about such resulting in lost data.

My point was not to suggest that collision would happen from stage to mixer as there is nothing to collide with. My point was more directed at the suggestion that dSnake could by put through an ethernet switch with the attendant risk of other (non dSnake) traffic being present. Thus the possibility of collisions.

Ethernet buffers its traffic just so that it can allow for traffic congestion where any node may have to wait for a clear path or a collision recovery. I cannot see how dSnake can effectively do this given the real time and low latency requirement of its design.

I also do not want to be involved in a bad thread discussion so now I’ll shut up about this.

[PeteParticipant]

@andreas, Thanks for posting this. I was wondering what protocol, if any, was part of dSnake. LLC is a transport layer and as such has no flow control or even packet error management. There is nothing at all wrong with A&H doing that. Actually it’s a good thing because the idea is to get packets to an from the mixer and the stage box.

Obviously LLC can be routed via an ethernet switch and other hardware. The difficulty comes when there is a packet collision. Ethernet will buffer the packet whilst both ethernet adapters “time out for random period” and then resend. latency at that level on a LAN is acceptable. I wonder if the QU series has the ability to a). buffer and b). recover without increasing latency. I suspect that it can do neither. None of this is bad in a mixer.

To proves any of the above I would need a protocol analyser and try to remember from my early career days (it really was a long time ago when I was playing with this stuff).

My feeling is that the QU is best left connected directly to the stagebox (AR2414, AB168, etc.) via an unbroken cable that I think world be best if it were shielded. This last is just my engineering experience and opinion.

Really the opinion and advice of the design team would settle this but I doubt this will be forthcoming. Therefore follow the manufacturers advice would be my direction.

[PeteParticipant]

Honestly, you are going to have to buy an Allen & Heath product. I have a QU-24 and an AT2412. On stage, they are wonderful. Having spent a lot of my professional life in electronics, networking and computing, I looked hard at what A&H had done and decided that it was easier, cheaper and certainly better to buy rather than to build. The reason A&H use a proprietary protocol is that there does not seem to be an open source specification for digital snakes. Also running dSnakes through normal ethernet switches may very well work but I do not believe that dSnake is ethernet compatible. I can only believe that a collision on the LAN would result in an increased latency that might ultimately result in signal loss since I do not know how the dSnake protocol could make up for even a 0.1 second drop out given that there is a continuous and real-time signal stream going in both directions.

I was also very glad to ditch the huge and heavy copper snake.

One technical point that was not discussed is the usable distance you can send USB signals. This is 5 metres (16 feet 5 inches). Sure you can buy/build extenders but the AB168. AR2412 just works. 100%.

[PeteParticipant]

Here you go.

I have never tried this so please take the webpage at facevalue. I downloaded the apk because our sax player has a Windows Phone but I never go to upload it to his phone. I did what [XAP]Bob suggests and fished out my old Samsung Galaxy S4 and put the Android app on that. The sax player uses that now at gigs.

[PeteParticipant]

My AR2414 came with a short STP cable. Presumably this is for testing purposes. I have since bought three cables, 20, 50 and 75 feet all of them have been STP. All work perfectly. The big difference between dSnake and regular LAN traffic is that LANs do not mind if you drop the occasional packet. In fact packet collisions are quite common and are actually planned for in the Ethernet design.

With dSnake, the best one can hope for wit a dropped packet (even if it uses packets –dunno) would be increased latency whilst the packet is resent. If the dSnake protocol is a stream, not packeted, then data loss must occur.

In either case any extra protection such as shielding must be worthwhile even though the signal paths are balanced, well, opto-isolated.

I based my decision to use STP on two things:
1. The cable that came with the AR2414 was shielded.
2. My own experience in the telecommunications and electronics field with shielded and balanced cabling on decades.

[PeteParticipant]

Thanks dpdan. The AR2414 turned out to be the better, if slightly more expensive soolution. It also fits nicely into my stage rack and it works perfectly.

One of the most impressive things about the QU-24 + AR2414 setup is that it is utterly viceless. It just works exactly as it should. I am seriously impressed and now that I have spent 2 weeks playing with the QU I am happy to take it to its first show on the 19th. Only about 300 people but I am looking forward to it, not worried about it (or me) at all.

You guys in here have just been great.

[PeteParticipant]

@andreas, Thank you — again. I absolutely hate not being able to solve these things myself. I am old enough and experienced (which means I have made almost every mistake possible at least once) to know enough about this. Seems not…

It was such a simple fix in the end. I was just too fixed on touch screen (blame phones and tablets) to turn the encoder. Dimwit I.

However I still maintain tha an extra paragraph in the manual would have helped.

The guys at Music America were really helpful once they were over my British accent and phoning from the USA.

[PeteParticipant]

I just called Allen & Heath’s US distributor who set me straight on two things.

1. The difference between the GLD and QU variants of the AR2414 is that GLD variant has a black front panel and the QU one is purple. There are, I am told, no other differences.

2. To pact, you touch the channel and turn the Screen Rotary knob. Duh! How simple. I was double tapping, dragging and trying to double select. Just turn the knob… Easy.

[PeteParticipant]

Well, I ended up not getting an AB168. I just (today) took delivery of an AR2414. What I have is a GLD-2414 and the dealer (Sam’s Music) tells me that it is exactly the same as the QU-2414. He called the US distributor who confirmed this whilst I was in the store. They assure me that this combination works and it is the only AR2414 variant they sell.

I am having trouble patching the LR-L & LR-R outputs to the AR2414. I have the pre-LR Master Fader outputs on theAR2414 but not LR Mix after the Master Fader. Can someone please tell me exactly how to do this please.
What I need to do is to switch the LR Pre L & LR Pre R outputs currently located in the box on the left side of the screen (in the AR2414 section) with the LR L & LR R on the right side of the screen because I do not have an AR84 and, I do not really wish to have to buy one.

I have read the manual which says “Qu outputs can be patched to the rack sockets using the Setup / Output Patch / dSNAKE screen.” Which is not too helpful.
The YouTube tutorial is similarly vague on the subject simply stating that it can be done. I Googled this and could not find anything.

Thanks.

[PeteParticipant]

@Dick Rees, I pretty much agree with you. I have a scene saved which does put everything back to flat. Theory is like the old military axiom that “No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.” Again, in this case it is just a starting point that I have chosen. Settings will certainly change at the sound check, probably all of them.

This one of the many reasons I started this thread to see if anyone was in my area and wished to come along to the gig. I won’t talk commercial stuff in the forums but, I would help whomever came out.

I know what I’m doing behind a desk and I have a fair handle on the QU-24. It would just be nice to have a second opinion handy. I only have one hard rule about mixing and that is: No drinks near my surface. Apart from that, every gig is different.

[PeteParticipant]

@[XAP]Bob & @gcumbee, Errr, yeah, at least.

[PeteParticipant]

@gcumbee, You are, of course right. The libraries are no more than a starting point but, I had to start somewhere and the built in libraries seemed a good place. Each mic, voice, venue and audio engineer is different. As soon as my drummer starts his sound check on his kick, the settings will be modified. This is clear.

By the end of the evening I shall be surprised if any channel has not been changed. Staying with the drummer for a moment, he plays louder as the evening wears on so all my gate and compression settings ALWYS need to be continuously changed and when he take lead vocals for a song his drumming quietens down.

It’s the classic waterbed analogy: Push it down in one place and it comes up everywhere else but, not equally.

[Author]

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