Will there be some plugin related reaction to the behringer wing?

[KeithJ A&HModerator]

Hi All,

This has become a very interesting thread – it’s really useful to have this feedback and to hear your opinions on the SQ add-ons along with their pricing and separation (in cost) from the SQ hardware and free firmware updates.
It is something we have never done before, and contrary to some of the posts here, has been very well received worldwide.
The reason we did it is because:
1. Software is not free (we tried seeing if developers would do it, but apparently they have to eat or something…)
2. Not everybody needs the extra processing and FX that are offered.
We have thousands of use cases where an SQ is installed in a house of worship or being used for AV for example, where the owner/engineer/venue may never want an accurate model of a 1970’s compressor.
So for those customers – it makes sense not to pay the extra for something they’ll never use, then for others, the option is there.
This hasn’t been the case in the past, with dLive the cost of the DEEP add-ons is included in the total.
Price-wise, as with most things, I would say you get what you pay for and nobody is forcing anyone to purchase anything. As a manufacturer, we offer a product, and whether or not you decide it’s worth it is completely up to you!
If the point being made was that there are two products (software or hardware) that are identical yet one cost more, then I’d understand, but I don’t believe that to be the case.

Thanks,
Keith.

[LozionParticipant]

We need more plugs, a texture like gate and better delays.
Both have been suggested in the relevant sub-forum.
Txs.

[WolfgangParticipant]

Hello, Keith,

I understand your reasoning. Really. And I am behind it myself.

A big problem for me as the owner of dLive and SQ consoles is that many technicians keep asking me about these license terms.
A lot of colleagues don’t like this approach, for a very simple reason:
other manufacturers in this price category do not have such license models. Don’t these software developers have to eat anything? Or are there possibly other billing methods?
The customers who buy inexpensive mixing consoles are usually very anxious to spend as little money as possible. That’s unfortunately the case, and that’s why these discussions are unlikely to stop. Unless the other manufacturers do the same at some point.

[ianhindParticipant]

@KeithJ

Just in reply to your message above

1. I don’t think anyone expects software to be free, people will gladly pay. Firmware is an exception as bugs and features will be added as time goes on. But we’re talking about add-ons so…

2. Also agree, someone buying an SQ for anything but live music obviously has no need for these DEEP or RackFX plugins. I agree with the additional costs for those who do want to use them, but this is where the issue lots of us have is, and that’s the pricing.

The best comparison I could make, is what is probably the most used plugin in the live world, Waves C6. A plugin comparable in the SQ series is the MultiBD.

Waves C6:
Currently $44
USB license follows you anywhere
Can run 100+ instances
Mac, PC, Avid Venues, any Madi equipped console, any SoundGrid compatible interface.
4 bands, plus 2 floating bands

Allen & Heath MultiBD:
Currently $89
Runs on a single console only
Maxes out at 8 instances (leaving you no reverb/delay, so realistically 4 instances)
4 bands only

There isn’t really a way to put this into a better perspective than that comparison. MultiBD cost more than twice the amount, but has very serious limitations compared to the cheaper (and better) option. You can apply this logic to basically any of the DEEP or RackFX plugin.

$89 is just too much, and there’s really no denying it. The pricing doesn’t match up to the product and what the current market dictates.

SQ plugin pricing realistically should be changed to this:
Anything $109 = $39
Anything $89 = $29
Anything $59 = $19

While you can argue “if you don’t like the pricing, don’t buy them”. Many of us bought this console for it’s amazing features, and one of those was the promise of “DEEP & RackFX” being ported for purchase in the future. But the pricing structure definitely had me feeling like a “bait and switch” was pulled, to the point I skipped everything and bought a Waves SQ card instead.

With all that said, I do love this console and am thankful for all the work and advancements you and your team have created. But I have a very serious gripe about the plugin pricing. If these were brought down to a reasonable cost, I would gladly purchase them even though I have the Waves SQ already, but where they stand right now, not a chance.

[ianhindParticipant]

@KeithJ
It would be interesting to hear your reply.

[Andre SParticipant]

Hi Ian,

I kind of agree with your post: More and cheaper addons would be great.

But there are some things that add to the costs of the wave plugins:

The SQ Multiband is $89. You don´t need anything else.

Waves C6 (I love that sucker. And R-Bass!) is $44, BUT to proper use it (with low latency) live you need
a Computer/Laptop (most of us have, but still),
a Waves Card: $559
a Gigabit Switch $45,90
Waves MultiRack $373,- or LiveProfessor (haven´t tried yet)
a WavesServer: $795 (if you take the cheapest SG Mobile Server)
Makes $1772,90 + C6

If you see it that way, the SQ Addons are not that badly priced.
But I´m glad if you could show me I´m wrong.

I have a wavescard myself. Mainly to record 48 Channels in 48kHz via Ethernet. I was thinking about getting a server, Multirack, etc, but Xtra cost for all that stuff holds me back. And I actually don´t wanna toss more equipment around. And I only have one MacBook that I´m using for recording. If I´d want to run I would need a second Laptop or am I wrong?

Warm regards,
André

[Anonymous]

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[KeithJ A&HModerator]

Hi Ian,

I’m sorry that it has felt like some sort of bait and switch as this was never our intention.
We’re not trying to get one over on anyone, and have actually tried hard to be upfront with pricing, along with what you can and cannot do with the add-ons.
Even when it kind of negative! (i.e. pointing out you cannot insert a GEQ on an input, or that RackFX add-ons have a maximum of 8 instances – both priced accordingly btw).

In response to the comparisons on pricing, as Andre has pointed out, you’re talking only about the plugin itself, and are comparing two different methods of plugin.
Personally, I feel this has maybe come from us calling these add-ons ‘plugins’. It gets across what they are without going into too much detail, but invites comparisons with ‘audio plugins’ of any type, with the most common of course being those from Waves.
Waves plugins are great! There’s a huge number to choose from and you can run them on lots of different systems, but you’ve omitted the fact that they are heavily discounted (fair enough), require external hardware and add latency (unlike DEEP add-ons for example).
There are lots of users like yourself who have chosen to use Waves or other plugins with their SQ either via USB-B or often (for the lower latency) with the Waves option card, and that’s great!

The processing and add-ons for SQ however, are not from Waves, or anyone else. We have not taken some code and made it run in the SQ.
So whilst the character/GUI/functionality of some of the processing is similar to others, it is not the same thing and you are not comparing like-for-like.

I know I have used silly analogies before, but…
Why do cars cost different amounts? They perform the same function and even look pretty similar too right?

Your argument for lower pricing is based on your perception that you are comparing like-for-like. You are not.
If you want to pay less for the plugins themselves and run hundreds but with extra hardware and latency, then there are options available.
Similarly, if you want to have everything in the box, then we have provided that option too.

Sorry if this comes across as rude or blunt, but I feel the need to say it in this way or we’ll just keep going in circles!

Thanks,
Keith.

[Andre SParticipant]

Well, @KeithJ A&H, that summs up my opinion quit nicely!

But the temptation to go down the Waves route is strong in me. I can feel it clearly . I´d really like to have more addons (They shall never be called plugins again). I have the waves card. BUT will there be more addons ever? Or can I spend my money on waves plugins, without regretting it, because in 2 Month (around NAMM) there won´t be any new addons?

Warm regards,
André

[ianhindParticipant]

@Andre_S
While yes, you do need additional hardware and costs, the fact you can use it on a ton of consoles, DAW’s, and utilize it in the studio, kind of makes owning a server even more enticing.

MultiRack allows for 8 plugins per chain, so with a Waves SQ card, you could run 512 plugins simultaneously (64 channels of audio with each channel using 8 plugins).

Also, if you have a server, it will host your plugins and free up your CPU for recording on a single machine. This is actually supported by Waves (1 computer doing both MultiRack SoundGrid, and Tracks Live).

[ianhindParticipant]

@KeithJ
Didn’t come off rude or blunt, I appreciate the honest response.

As I just mentioned to Andre, yes there is extra hardware needed, but when you realize that that same hardware can be moved around to many, many consoles, DAW’s, studios, it’s value outweighs it’s cost and almost becomes a no-brainer. Like owning a laptop, it becomes another accessory you become adapt to always having around.

As for the latency, the SQ does 0.7ms, a SoundGrid setup with it’s latency cranked down is 0.8ms. So full round-trip the signal path is about 1.5ms which is perfectly fine to mix IEM’s on (the most latency sensitive situation) so pointing out latency doesn’t really apply here.

My argument is talking about two pieces of coding that do nearly identical things, split audio into frequency dependant sections and compress them. Regardless of it being Allen & Heath, Waves, or FabFilter, they are all accomplishing the same task, just with a different GUI.

You stand by the pricing and how/why it is where it’s at. I disagree and feel it’s overpriced compared to similar offerings.

So we’ll just put the conversation to sleep and agree to disagree.

I love my SQ, and I’ll continue on using it for many years. This is one of a very few gripes I have about the console and I voiced it. I’ll put add-on pricing arguments to bed and move along.

Cheers

[TobiParticipant]

Did anyone compare Wing with SQ directly? With hands-on both?

[Mfk0815Participant]

The wing have some nice concepts and features. I don‘t want to explain them in detail. Just to say that the flexible channel processing with a lot of good sounding replacements of the stock effects as well as the well equipped FX Racks and some nice ideas are a really good starting point.
On the other hand there are a lot of missing functionality but we know similar from the very beginning of the SQ two years ago. But most of them are luxury functions like remote control, DAW integration, full featured show management. Also some promised FXes like the VSS3 reverb are not available at the moment.
The sound is fine but the SQ is a little bit better. If the live sound is bad, blame the operator not one of the two products.

[rottmatParticipant]

Hi,

in my opinion it is fair to ask for money for additional software. however, there should be a possibility to move the license. I will buy the 3rd sq console shortly – however, like the 2nd console, it will not get any plugins. for that the licenses are not portable they are simply too expensive.
i like the sq consoles as well as the new functions and the plugins.

[SteffenRParticipant]

indeed, for the multi console owner it is not very confident…

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