Recall Filter – seperate Send On/Off and Send Level?

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This topic contains 10 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Neakmenter Neakmenter 5 years, 4 months ago.

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    Profile photo of Neakmenter

    Hi all!
    Persuaded the boss to buy a dLive dm64 and s3000 with Dante.
    Awesome so far except…

    Setting up iPad personal monitors for a complicated band (48chans from stage and 16 qlab) where the guys share instruments and move positions a lot.

    I have their auxes fed from groups for them to listen to a simplified mix of the instruments they’re not playing, and their own instruments feeding the auxes from the input chan direct.

    Example: When one guy swaps out to the keys, I want to recall a scene scoped to turn off his ‘keys group’ send and turn on the ‘organ and piano channels’ sends.

    This works great EXCEPT – the send levels return to what gets stored in the scenes. I DONT want to touch the levels, the guys have been tweaking them through the show. I just want the on/off status to be stored and recalled!

    A workaround is using the auto-store function which updates his tweaks to the scenes before changing. EXCEPT this ONLY works from the GO buttons on surface or director. My scenes are being triggered from MIDI (qlab) and the auto-store doesn’t work from that scene change source (nor from soft key recall btw!)

    Please please help this is driving me crazy and first rehearsals are on Monday with first show on Friday!

    I REALLY don’t want the boss to have wasted his money on something that is so close to being what I need, but might not be!

    Profile photo of tor

    Sorry, but I don’t think you will find a single console in the world made for that kind of operation, so naturally you will run into difficulties programming it.

    If it was me, I would use ME-1 mixers for the musicians, where they can store and recall their own presets when they change instruments, completely independent of the console.

    Profile photo of Neakmenter

    Hi tor, thanks for your response! I’m using the me-U/me-1 systems on another tour, they’re also great, but less so for this band as the guys change positions so much and the me systems need cat5 and audio return xlrs which keeps them stuck in one position. With the ipads, they’re wireless, and the guys can log in to their mix from any position when they move.

    It’s frustrating as I’ve tried many ways to workaround (even trying to control send on/off via qlab, but A&h midi spec doesn’t include that control!)

    Perhaps Nicola could suggest splitting these two aspects of “routing” in a future firmware!

    Profile photo of tor

    Different strokes I guess. I would not accept this kind of solution, relying on iPads and having the musicians jumping around different scenes.

    Put up an ME-1 at each position, everyone will have to accept using the phones output at each station. If that is not okay, they should pay for a monitor tech.

    The only valid other solution is supplying everyone with the same basic mix from a stereo group, and then they can add on top of that by muting and unmuting individual instruments/input channels or groups. The iLive could do this without phase issue between Groups and Input channels sent to an AUX – I suspect the same for dLive. Then you could drop all the scene recalling and saving, as the levels will just be as they left them.

    Profile photo of Neakmenter

    Thanks again for your thoughts! It’s nice that someone takes the time here for someone else’s problems!

    Righto, the final setup I’ve gone for is this:

    I have a vocal group and an instrument group for each guy. The drums have 4 groups “kick, snare, toms, cymbals”
    And the keys have a group too.

    Instead of feeding back down to the input channels for their own instruments, they’re all gonna use the groups.

    I’ve sacrificed some matrix and fx busses to allow for a second copy of each of the drums and keyboard groups – these will be where the input channels route when the “other guy” takes over those instruments. Means that everyone has to set their drums and keys levels in two different places but it should be good enough.

    This way I can scene the input channels to group sends off and on without messing with the group to aux send levels.

    Once more, would all be solved if the recal filter could see the routing on/off separate from the routing level. (I think even ls9 has that level of focus available!)

    Thanks again and wish me luck for tomorrow – hope the band likes it!

    Profile photo of Mr.X

    Not that it helps, but the Yamaha separates Mix On/Off from Send level for Global Safe and Focus so it’s not a big thing you’re asking for.
    A&H really could go a lot further with the detail on what can be filtered, it’s pretty coarse right now compared to other consoles.

    I’m looking at the Global Scene Safes page, and is it really only “Routing” that can be safed per channel? No individual mixes?

    Profile photo of Neakmenter

    Yeah – I have been touring the ls9 for several tours here. This work with the DLive is trialling for upgrades accross 4-5 tours.
    The ls9s are good workhorses on a budget and have been around for a long time now.
    But the lack of per channel scoping on them… and the lack of mixes…
    64 channels is quite nice, but I had to use two of the desks (kinda monitors ish and foh ish) – very time consuming setup and a stage-wing area that looked like a jumble sale of connections.

    The dlive mix rack is a much nicer solution here and gives me the channel count I need at a great price point. All other aspects of the desk are great. Just this one issue is putting serious restrictions on achieving what I want to do for my bands!

    Just about to do a post about some experiences with the desk during the first day setup and rehearsals.

    Profile photo of Nicola A&H
    Nicola A&H

    If it helps, we are working on a number of scene improvements, including more detailed filters, for a V1.5 release. Target April-May.

    Profile photo of Neakmenter

    YES! You guys are the BEST! 🙂 Thanks Nicola!

    Profile photo of Yacob

    I don’t know if you found a solution yet or not, but if I’m understanding correctly, couldn’t you use recall filters/scene safes?
    I have my console set up with softkeys recalling a scene that switches FX sends between different mics but also have IEMS recall safed on just those scenes so it doesn’t change their mixes.
    Don’t know if this helps or not but if you would like more help or a better explanation, let me know!

    Profile photo of Neakmenter

    Hi Yacob! Thanks for your input.

    I’ve had to take a different approach with this in the end. I have their mixes’ routing recall-safe, and I unsafe the routing for the groups and input channels. That way I can scene the inputs in and out of the groups as needed, without messing with the send levels of those channels to the mixes.

    It just means that the guys won’t be able to sometimes hear the input channels instead of the groups. They can only listen to the groups. I’ve had to burn up more groups making copies of the drum groups and keys groups that can have a different level for when a different guy is playing them.

    It’s a matter of needing to be able to change the input channel’s routing on/off without affecting the routing levels.

    Your solution works for other mixes on the same input (such as fx sends), but I want to be able to remove an input from a mix and then put it back on a later scene (night of which require unsafing of the mix) without storing or recalling the send levels into that same mix.

    Sorry if I’m not being very clear as to why it’s needed, it is quite complex when trying to put it into words!

    Thanks for having a crack at solving this, but alas, this time it’s not quite the right solution. Roll on firmware 1.5! 😉

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