loudness measurement

Forums Forums Qu Forums Qu feature suggestions loudness measurement

This topic contains 34 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of volounteer volounteer 1 month, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 35 total)
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  • #93975
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    In order to meet national and some local laws on noise and safety we need a better way to measure SPL vs the dBFS on the Qu.

    Whilst we could use handheld meters that is not a viable solution.
    We need a box that would sense the true SPL short medium and long term and relay that to the Qu and display it next to the dBFS meters. Make it adjustable as LUFs is not the best solution.

    Mixing for NPR TV and similar places can be handled with the dBFS shown but for venues where actual SPL is regulated we need a better way to do it. But knowing the actual LUFs as being measured could save with editing efforts to adjust things later.

    This would best be located in the audience which is the protected class by the laws. SPL levels on stage and in the balcony would differ too much to use placed there.

    Perhaps if performers cared about their ears there could be another box designed (or the same one with different feature enabled) so they could dial in the loudness they wanted and not have to guess at it. Or maybe they dont really care about protecting their ears? Anyway the law requires us to protect the listeners in the audience so one device is needed to help automate that.

    #93976
    Profile photo of garyh
    garyh
    Participant

    I think an SPL meter hooked up to electrodes in the soundboard operator’s chair that gives them a shock when it’s too loud would do the trick.

    #93977
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    In order to meet national and some local laws on noise and safety we need a better way to measure SPL vs the dBFS on the Qu.

    a measurement has to be independent from any PA system to meet nearly all applicable laws

    #93978
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @SteffenR

    Maybe it would be illegal in Germany.

    But using the measurement to ensure that the law is met would never be illegal no matter how that feedback loop got closed in the USA and most of the world with sensible governments, maybe in some that tend to being very controlling.

    Even if it not to conform with the law, a way to tell the actual loudness level in the audience and a way to use it to control the mixer would be useful.

    Automatic feedback suppressors already provide such a control albeit limited and in a crude manner.

    #93979
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    the desk has no influence in the SPL in the last place….

    there is a PA system afterwards
    thats why a measurement inside the desk is not right in any way

    #93980
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    and your “problem” is not related to an A&H product in any way
    so this is the wrong place to discuss this anyway

    #93981
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @SteffenR

    stop being an obnoxious bully
    you are not the police for this website nor even a moderator just a kibitzer

    my suggestion has everything to do with AH products to fix a need that is essential

    if you dont like my posts then dont read them
    but please stop with your useless comments meant only to disparage something else because you need to do that to feel better about yourself

    #93983
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    ***comment removed***
    …they suggest wrong things

    I could not leave them uncommented because somebody who reads them could think it’s right what you are saying

    sound pressure level measurement is not meaningful inside a closed electrical environment…
    there is no sound inside… 😉

    just electricity or bits and bytes
    you can’t measure what’s not there

    and there are a lot of solutions to measure real sound pressure level already available
    and they have to be calibrated since uncalibrated measurement equipment is… not correct
    to calibrate the system and to handle the information is the responsibility of the sound technician
    and still has nothing to do with Qu series mixing desks in general

    to discuss SPL measurement solutions there are better places on the internet…

    #93985
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    Drawmer and I’m sure others already make good brick wall limiters that you can set
    the threshold in relation to the room spl. One model of theirs has green, yellow and red
    stop light metering so you know when your getting close.

    True SPL monitoring by the numbers is done by handheld meters and standalone software.

    Not something that needs to be part of the mixer.

    That said I think there was a mixer that did run SMAART or something like it.

    #93986
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mikec

    Churches really need a way to match dBFS on the Qu vs dBSPL they measure so they can easily set proper levels.
    We have used handheld meters but that does not help us set the levels without them which would be ideal.
    They also take away from doing other tasks which complicates things.

    Not PART of the mixer but part of the AH SYSTEM so we can see visually where we are at.

    #93987
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @SteffenR

    ***comment removed***

    You totally misread what I said.
    The SPL level is in the room that the audience complains about when it is too low/high.
    The mixer has a meter with dBFS matching the signal in the room based on the power amp settings.
    We need to match the dBSPL in the room with the dBFS shown on the mixer.

    The power amp has been set. It will never be changed.
    All changes will come from the Qu.
    But we do need a way to match Qu signal levels with SPL levels automatically in RT.

    Why do you go out of your way to try to find a problem with what I post?
    I am a degreed engineer and also licensed Professional Engineer.
    I know what I am posting is just fine even if you dont like it.
    If you do not like my suggestion then ignore it. Why do you get so worked up over my posts anyway.
    [I know your real reason but will not post it so Keith wont censor yet another message]

    Calibration is just another of your red herrings. Of course it would need calibration. That is not an issue.

    You claim you comment because my posts are wrong but you mostly complained that I should not make suggestions to improve the AH gear. Inconsistency would make me wonder why [except that I know your problem]

    Some of your comments make me think you think I am dumber than a box of rocks.
    But they do show a lot about you and your character while not impacting my suggestions at all.

    #93988
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    what you mean with “match”

    if you mean you have to adapt the volume in the room to the level meter in the QU
    then ok… do it with your brain

    it’s loud enough at -3dB on the meter of the QU here you go… go with everything to -3dB
    and set a master limiter at -3dB and leave the master fader at 0

    #93989
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    That said I think there was a mixer that did run SMAART or something like it.

    there was the EAW digital mixer equipped with SMAART
    very “succesful”

    #93990
    Profile photo of ioTon
    ioTon
    Participant

    Hi guys,
    I think something got mixed up:

    -> Loudness measured in LUFS has nothing to do with the acoustic environment. And also the scale of the Qu cannot show LUFS.

    -> SPL Metering has to be measured in the Room. And it will change when people (absorbing material) is in the Room – so if the room is empty your SPL will be higher, because the room will reflect more, instead of absorbing the soundenergy.
    SPL can be measured weighted, fast, slow, impuls. But there’s no long- nor short-term SPL! It can be integrated to an LA,eq over a time interval.

    -> the dB Scale is also something else.

    So I think the title of the thread is wrong – you want to measure SPL to get a maximum LA,eq isn’t it?
    So it’s a maximum Soundpressure Level – not Loudness.

    But I don’t now what the American Law is about. Maybe you can give us European the info 😉
    greetings

    #93993
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    there was the EAW digital mixer equipped with SMAART
    very “succesful”

    That was in the Mackie EAW era, that mixer was a little ahead of the curve and never really took off in big numbers.

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