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This topic contains 23 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of volounteer volounteer 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #95235
    Profile photo of Lighthouse Church
    Lighthouse Church
    Participant

    Working with different mixes within one scene….if I change the panning from one mix to another, does it affect the entire scene? Same question for gains also. I ask because we live stream our church service and I need a separate mix from the FOH to send out for the live stream. Thanks for any recommendations!

    #95237
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    nothing affects any scene… as long you don’t overwrite it

    scenes are snapshots, momentary records of values
    nothing more

    that gives you a defined state your service could start
    if you need new start values save a new scene

    it is essentially to understand what a scene is, otherwise you could expect the wrong things

    after this statement… the panning in the auxiliary mixes is independent from the main pan
    but subgroups are not independent

    since the gain is located in the preamps it will have influence on all mixes where the input channel is used

    #95238
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @SteffenR

    And yet our mixes have different gain on all the inputs okay.

    How could that be if the preamps influence all mixes?

    #95241
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    @williamadams

    oh man… what should I say…

    #95252
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    I know that our mixes are not affected by changing the the channel input faders.

    If you or one eye knew why what I see is not happening then you really need to say so.

    #95257
    Profile photo of Søren Steinmetz
    Søren Steinmetz
    Participant

    You talk about faders, where Steffen and OP talk about Gain, two completely different things.

    All Aux sends made from a channel will be affected by the Gain on the input to that channel.

    That your faders are not affecting your mixes is simply because you have your mixes set to Pre, the normal way of doing monitor mixes, as opposed to post wich is usually used for Fx sends and similar.

    #95259
    Profile photo of MarkPAman
    MarkPAman
    Participant

    We’ve all go into the habit of abbreviating “Preamp Gain” to just “Gain”. Probably because it’s been labelled like that on most desks for the 40+ years that I’ve been using them and probably well before that.

    In reality, almost everything on the desk has some affect on gain. Gates and compressors alter gain depending on level, eq alters gain of different frequency ranges in different ways. De-essers and multi and compression are combinations of both.

    #95275
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    After you edited your post?! (#95241)

    I didn’t…

    I think somebody from A&H did this, to keep the forum clear…

    @valimaties
    Did I offend you personal? Then I have to say sorry because it was not my intention.

    #95276
    Profile photo of KeithJ A&H
    KeithJ A&H
    Moderator

    Please guys – stay on topic!
    Of course it’s ok to have opinions and discuss things or maybe even point out where someone may be incorrect, but this community is for sharing knowledge and learning about the products or mixing in general.
    Inappropriate and/or personal comments that have nothing to do with the thread will be removed.

    There are already some great answers here and I’ll repeat some parts but…

    Preamps are digitally controlled analogue stages, with each preamp ‘belonging’ to a socket.
    Although the settings for each preamp are usually controlled from a channel in the console (and via scene changes), these settings are not a part of channel processing and occur before AD conversion, so adjustment of preamp gain, 48V and Pad will affect everything (input/output channel or tie line) which is sourced from that socket. You can see this by simply patching the same input socket to multiple input processing channels on the SQ and notice that adjustments to the preamp in one channel will appear matched on the other.
    Conversely, you can use socket control in the I/O screen to adjust preamp settings for a socket which has not been patched to an input channel or mix external input.

    The fader is indeed a gain stage, but due to there being so many gain stages in a mixer, the word ‘gain’ is almost exclusively used by engineers to refer to preamp gain. Even make-up gain is often referred to as simply ‘make-up’ rather than confuse things. (Mark put that better).
    Personally I find it easiest to refer to a fader as always adjusting ‘send level’ (well, except when using GEQ Fader Flip, but lets not get into that!).

    Then you can say that a pre-fade aux mix is independent of the main mix, so you can do what you like with the send levels in the main mix with no effect to your aux mix (unlike if you changed the ‘gain’ for a channel).

    On the other hand, the send level of a channel in a post-fade aux mix will respect the send level of the same channel in the main mix, or you could say that the actual send level to the post-fade aux mix is a sum of both fader positions e.g. -5dB in the main mix and -10dB in the post-fade mix would result in a -5dB send to the main mix and -15dB send to the aux mix.

    You can use either pre or post fade auxes for a live stream mix – post-fade would often be used by a single operator looking after both FOH and the stream, while pre-fade is sometimes the best way to go for a second ‘stream’ engineer to give them full separate control of send levels.

    Both engineers would be affected by preamp gain but both have separate trim controls.

    Part of the question might also be answered by thinking about difference between signal processing and signal routing.
    The processing is all the gate/PEQ/comp which belongs to the channel, and the processed channel is then routed to different mixes with tap-off points allowing for some or all of the processing to be included in the signal being sent.
    One way to separate these is that processing is on a per-channel basis (green select key), send levels/assignments/panning/balance are on a per-mix basis (blue mix key).
    Each input channel is a single ‘thing’ and each mix is a different combination of input channels, which can all be panned in different ways.

    That’s probably enough rambling for the minute, hopefully with some of the other comments it makes some sort of sense.

    I’m going to presume this is all because the streaming camera feed is from behind the drummer 🙂

    Cheers,
    Keith.

    #95289
    Profile photo of Hugh
    Hugh
    Participant

    Thank you Keith for your cogent voice of knowledge and reason. 50 years of dealing with obvious audio miss understandings have at the top of the list a proper protocol for initially establishing appropriate Pre-Amp Gain. Failure to comprehensively understand the difference between analog VxS digital processing is at the root of the difficulties. This is particularly true when I have a simultaneous Video/FOH audio live capture project. I set up a stereo mix, very similar to the FOH mix, for an audio scratch track to my my Atomos video recorder and will multi-track pre-amp direct stems for external two mixing later back in the studio. Our acoustic Americana performances will on occasion have a wise guy that will play like Casper the ghost at sound check and when the lights come up and fannies are in the seats he morphs into Godzilla with a flat pick. This is where the ability to minimize overshoots at the pre-amp stage can be very important. Overloading the pres, whether intentional or accidental, is a destructive gain stage element that needs to be prevented from the get go.
    Hugh

    #95297
    Profile photo of Sam
    Sam
    Participant

    I think its important to focus on the OP’s question…. And not digress into other topics. I’m not as proficient in understanding everything as I would like and I’m sure many of the volunteers and other people that get on these forums looking for help are like me or probably have even less experience with all the terms. I mean this in all respect to everyone. 🙂
    Just trying to help as quickly as possible and make it easy.

    @lighthousechurch
    Are you speaking about panning like stereo panning for a piano or such?
    Your gain setting per channel will affect everything after it, EQ, gate, comp, processing and such, and also affect the send levels. FOH, Mix, Aux, etc.

    That being said. What are you trying to accomplish with the panning function?

    #95298
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @LighthouseChurch
    @markpaman
    @Søren Steinmetz

    Thanks to Mark and Soren for noting that terminology varies from casual users to full time pros.
    Not sure if that is the problem with LighthouseChurch and his question or not.
    To be honest I cannot imagine a reason to want to pan anything in the mix like he says.

    Us normal users set the preamp gain via the screen and then forget it.
    We use the faders up perhaps a little, or down a lot, as needed.
    I still assert that my observations of moving faders , which means gain to most of us, does not affect the mix.

    Once you set the preamp gain in the screen there is never any reason to change that unless you swap mikes or have a low input (like when we play back CDs with wide ranges of average signal level) that you have to realign with zero on the faders.

    And again I assert that using a mix different from the LR outputs will not be affected with the faders which is gain to most of us. But yes it affects the entire scene FOR THAT MIX.

    Now if one eye et al want to quibble then take it up with whoever wrote the AH documents and what my eyeballs say is actually happening on our Qu.

    #95299
    Profile photo of Søren Steinmetz
    Søren Steinmetz
    Participant

    I read him as “if I change the (pre amp) gain while in a mix, does that change the gain in other mixes on that channel as well” – to that I dare say it will, since the (pre amp) gain affects everything on that channel.

    When he talk about mixes, I read it as the Aux/monitor/fold back mixes and if the panning in the main mix of a channel will change the panning in an Aux/mix as well.
    Think he is using a stereo Aux/mix to make a completely different streaming mix fader-level wise, and was curious if the panning on the mainmix would “bleed over” in his stream mix. 🙂

    And yes, when oldtimers like Mark and I say Gain, we more or less always mean the Pre Amp 😉

    I tend to find a fitting level, and then try not to touch the gain unless it is close to clipping, as I often run Dante and record multitrack direct from the Dante network as well.

    #95301
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @Søren Steinmetz

    I read the OP as changing the faders on one of the mix button mixes.
    He should not be changing the preamp gain via the screen as that would defintely affect everything.

    I do not read aux as mix although technically it may be one.
    I read mix to mean the mix on a mix button mix.

    And why he needed to pan anything was a mystery; as what was really being panned.

    Hopefully @Lighthouse Church will come back and clear things up about what he is doing.

    As to his stated problem at the end, our church uses mix7 to the pc via an audio i/f where some magic software with OBS merges the video with audio and the livestream op does other things then sends it to AM & FM radio plus facebook andor utoob for livestream. No panning necesssary. It should also work for him to do it that way.

    #95304
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    Think he is using a stereo Aux/mix to make a completely different streaming mix fader-level wise, and was curious if the panning on the mainmix would “bleed over” in his stream mix. 🙂

    And yes, when oldtimers like Mark and I say Gain, we more or less always mean the Pre Amp

    Panning on the main mix is independent of any panning done on stereo mixes.

    Like you when I hear or talk channel gain I always think input pre-amp.

    Depending on the type of input sources input levels can change needing gain adjustments
    say from sound check to the actual show when the drummer hits harder, the guitar player cranks up, keyboard patch levels, ect. Actually sometimes just a different musician from one day to the next playing the same instrument may need a tweak to the input gain.

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