Help with Effects to Submix

Forums Forums SQ Forums SQ troubleshooting Help with Effects to Submix

Tagged: ,

This topic contains 13 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Mfk0815 Mfk0815 5 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #96853
    Profile photo of NoobieGuy
    NoobieGuy
    Participant

    This is my first foray into A&H world. Before I was using a Behringer X32, and found the workflow easier to understand. There is little documentation I can find to help me figure this out. Any help is deeply appreciated.

    My setup is an SQ5.

    We have the live mix, which is easy. I have certain vocal channels with reverb FX and everything is fine.

    Then, I have a sub-mix (#4) that is going to our live streaming computer. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to get the effects to also feed to that sub mix.

    For the vocals, I want their effects to be in the house (done) but also in the live stream (Mix #4).

    The only way I have found to get effects to the live stream is to insert – and it adds it to the whole mix. I only want the vocal channels to have the effects.

    I have tried everything I know how to do and just can’t figure it out. And all the documentation/videos I can find are so general they don’t really help.

    #frustrated

    #96857
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @noobieguy

    I feel your pain.
    The documentation is minimalist and lacking in user friendliness.
    It is good for engineers to write and use for themselves but us users would like more than utoob videos that are hard to find and often poorly done to fully understand these devices.

    *** comments removed to avoid confusion ***

    Aslo now I am not really sure what your real problem is. But thinking it is terminology.
    I think you need send not insert but would have to check the documentation carefully to be sure that is correct.

    Or could you use a separate mix with one tailored just to livestream and the other to your inhouse monitors?

    Just me, but I would not put any fx on the livestream other than compression and possibly EQ, but only if needed to simplify the video operations. OBS and SLOBS should be able to any tweaking needed before sending the video feed.

    #96861
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    You just need to select your mix/aux 4 putting the mixer in the mix/aux 4 sends on fade mode just like do when you adjust the various input channel levels that are feeding that mix.
    With the mixer in the sends on fader mode go to the FX return channel of the FX that you want to send into the mix feeding the live stream and then bring up the fader to the level that you want the FX in the live stream feed.

    Is mix/aux 4 all set to post fade?
    I assume that the FX processor only has the vocals sent to it.

    #96867
    Profile photo of NoobieGuy
    NoobieGuy
    Participant

    We are doing musical live streams (church) so effects are a must. Dry vocals sound horrible.

    “No way to selectively choose fx on the channel sent to the mix that I am aware of.” This just seems crazy to me. I can do it with the Behringer easy.

    When I select the effects channel on the Bheringer, I can move a fader to bring it up and down in the sub-mix. Can’t seem to do it here.

    #96868
    Profile photo of NoobieGuy
    NoobieGuy
    Participant

    @mike C

    That seems to be what everyone says. I have tried that – when I move the effects fader (It’s on like the 4th or 5th layer down), it adjusts it for everything – the house and the submix. I just want to control it for the submix.

    So I have 2 vocal tracks that need reverb. I push the “FX 1” button and make sure the faders for each channel are turned up. This works as normal in the house.

    Then, I switch to the submix-4, and move down to the layer that has the 4 effects mixes. Moving the faders there moves it in the live stream – but it also impacts the house.

    In the Bhreinger, I can select vocal channel 1, and turn it up in the effects channel. Then, I can switch to the effects channel, and tell it to get so loud in the house, and then also get so loud in the sub-mix as well.

    I can do the same thing in Logic with bus-sends.

    I may wrong in my terminology sends, inserts, etc. I don’t know terminology.

    My terminology is about to be “SQ5 for sale.” lol. I only have 2 or 3 hairs left to pull.

    #96872
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    On the SQ the 12 mixes can be either a sub group or an independent mix/aux.
    In a sub group there is no independent level control of the inputs that are assigned
    to a given group, there either assigned or not, when assigned the level feeding the group
    is controlled by and is the same as the main mix.

    In a mix each input has an independent level control feeding the mix that can be selected
    to be either pre or post fade.

    Your terminology has both been mix and group. I’m thinking from your last description
    that the mix 4 slot is set to be group and not a mix.
    Check that mix 4 is set to operate as a mix and it sounds like you would at least want the FX return to be set as pre fade so you would have independent level control of it feeding the live stream mix.

    Post a screen shot of the routing screen with the FX return in question selected.

    #96878
    Profile photo of MarkPAman
    MarkPAman
    Participant

    Just forget for a minute that the FX are built in, and think of the effects returns in the same way as any other input to the desk.

    Sending to any mix is done in exactly the same way as you’ve done it for the vocal channels.

    In this case, once you have the desired effect working in the main mix, press the blue button on the right for Mix 4, and adjust the amount of reverb going to if with the fader on the FX Return 1 channel. (If you’re not starting from the default state then you may need to double check that the FX Return still assigned for Mix 4, and set to Post Fade.)

    In the Bhreinger, I can select vocal channel 1, and turn it up in the effects channel. Then, I can switch to the effects channel, and tell it to get so loud in the house, and then also get so loud in the sub-mix as well.

    This is exactly the same way as every desk I’ve ever used – though the nameing and position of controls may change of course.

    #96882
    Profile photo of KeithJ A&H
    KeithJ A&H
    Moderator

    @noobieguy

    Sorry that you have found this so frustrating, I promise that once it clicks it’s very straightforward (and we’ve all been there when nothing seems to work… until it does).
    I’m also going to apologise in advance for including info here that you already know and are comfortable with, it’s just to try and avoid missing anything.

    If you learn better by watching rather than reading, the two videos that I would suggest are most useful are (in order):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj7wNadYXFk – Rob’s Qu FX routing video, as the concept for routing to and from the RackFX units is the same on all our digital consoles.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0tJRe0sjgo – How the concept above applies to SQ.

    Probably the most common cause for confusion are where users are used to applying FX on a channel by channel basis (as you might with a DAW for example).
    This is possible using inserts, but usually you might want to add delay or reverb to a bunch of input channels to put them in the same space (sonically).
    To send multiple channels to one RackFX unit then, you would use a mix to create some combination of channels which you then send to the RackFX unit. This is what the dedicated FX sends are for, and you can also use other mixes to feed the FX units if more Mix -> Return FX are required.

    Then (where I think your issue is) you have to get the wet/affected (effect-ed?!) sound back into the mixes in order to blend it with the dry/unaffected sends from the input channels.
    Some consoles use input channels for these returns and some have the returns fixed or hidden. The SQ has 8 dedicated stereo returns (with PEQ) however, and the process for getting these to any of the groups or auxiliary mixes works in exactly the same way as with input channels (which Mark and Mike have already described) – just select a mix with the blue mix key and turn up the FX Return fader to send the effected sound to the mix.
    (by default, all FX returns are ‘Assigned’/On for all mixes, but are only turned up in the main mix, so you don’t accidentally send a delay to a singer’s monitor wedge for example…)
    By selecting different mixes and adjusting the FX return levels, you can choose how much of each FX is heard in each mix.

    The main points with terminology are:
    Sends = going somewhere, e.g. inputs to an FX unit, inputs to a mix or FX returns to a mix
    Returns = coming from somewhere, specifically somewhere that you’ve sent something to, e.g. just the reverb output from the FX unit
    Insert = inserted into the channel signal path, so one FX unit can be inserted on one input channel or one mix channel at a time
    Mix = combination of channels, on the SQ this includes LR, Groups, Auxes and Matrices
    LR = main mix
    Aux = separate mix with the ability for individual send levels to ignore (pre) or respect (post) the individual send levels for the main (LR) mix
    Group = mix of input and FX return channels which can then be processed/routed as one and sent to any of the other mixes
    Matrix = a mix of mixes, where you can also apply an extra step of processing and gain control before sending to an output

    I’m also attaching a quick diagram here just to show a super simplified signal path for one channel and one mix with FX added using Mix -> Return.

    Cheers,
    Keith.

    Attachments:
    You must be logged in to view attached files.
    #96891
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @KeithJ A&H

    Are akk those spots: going from, and coming into, along with the path taken, described anywhere?????
    I do not see all of them on the block diagram. Nor is it clear in the written manual.

    Would have to recheck the SQ docs but for sure the Qu actual physical routing is a mystery.

    #96894
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    Would have to recheck the SQ docs but for sure the Qu actual physical routing is a mystery.

    Exactly what do you find such a mystery in the routing on a QU?

    General comment here……with each passing day the people coming into digital mixing who have had years of analog mixer set up and outboard processor patching to and from the analog mixer are getting fewer.

    Having patched physical pieces of equipment together and making it work gives you the visual of how inputs, outputs, routing and over all signal flow really works.

    I feel that makes jumping into the world of digital mixing that much easier in letting you kind of visualize what’s happening inside that digital box and in knowing that letting you take advantage of everything else that is possible in the world of digital mixing.

    #96895
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mikec

    It is a mystery because I do not see how it can happen physically. And I dont see them showing that either.
    With analog boards I can follow the insert wire out and come back in the return to continue on through the channel strip.

    With the Qu and others using digital , apparently there is some magical type of transport that moves things from unknown locations (at least specifically if not generally) to some other location (at least specifically if not generally).
    Sometimes the rough location is implied but the actual specific spot is not.

    I see the insert on the diagram and that is fine and seems to be clear. (Although there are still some questions about details about how many that need to be answered). I also see the word send and return but where they were sent to or where that returned from is not shown so I can see it. And in particular PAFL (why couldnt they just use pfl and afl and keep them separate to stop confusing things as to which one it really is?????) as shown on the block diagram does not match to what folks say actually happens here on this forum.

    I fault the documentation for being insufficient for users and at times being completely missing wrt necessary facts.

    #96896
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    Documentation can not cover ever possible scenario and only take you so far after that you need to connect the dots on your own when the need for a creative routing solution comes up.

    #96897
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mikec

    Dont need every possible combination making up a scenario, but the docs sure do not tell enough to even be sure about doing one scenario.

    I cannot connect the dots when they dont show me where the dots really are located specifically even if they vaguely do it generally in one of the possibilities while obfuscating the other possibilities.

    #96906
    Profile photo of Mfk0815
    Mfk0815
    Participant

    On the X32 there is no special difference between subgroups and aux mixes. You can decide for each channel whether you want to use the mixbus as aux or as subgroup. That allows the operator to use a mixbus for all regular input channels as subgroup but for the FX returns as a postfader aux. something which is not possible on the SQ.
    I would go the postfader aux route to fix the problem og @noobieguy. There are other possible solutions but this is the simpliest one.
    And we do not need another discussion about documentation because for solving this issue you can find everything written in the current manual. And no, upward compression won‘t help here. 😉

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.