Gain

This topic contains 16 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Hugh Hugh 3 months, 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 17 total)
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  • #99172
    Profile photo of michaelc
    michaelc
    Participant

    Hey everyone;

    I am new to the digital world my church about a month ago switched to the sq6 and I am having some issues. All my mics seem really hit and everyone is complaining but pa being ti loud. Been watching alot of videos trying to understand how to set the gain properly but there are so many different ways. When our mixer was installed the mains were set by the installer and he used pink noise get get the mains set. With a lavalier ic for our pastor when you push the fader up very loud maybe gain at 10 or 12 with mains at unity. Have only being doing sound about 8 months and the guy was training me has left the church. Thanks for any help

    #99173
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    turning down the volume should be no issue…

    #99176
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @michaelc

    this has nothing to do with digital.

    take the knob on the amplifier and rotate it left if the PA is too loud.
    have you actually measured the loudness with an SPL meter?

    there is only one way to set up the maximum safe gain properly.
    although there are a number of approaches/tools/techniques to achieving that one way.
    they should all be close enough for govt work.

    how much of that available gain you use to create loudness is up to you and your ears.
    maybe also the laws in some countries to protect our hearing from deaf A1s and garage band noobies.

    question: why do you raise the fader up at all if that makes things too loud?????

    if your issue is just the pastor then lower the fader on his channel.

    if your issue is the total mix can you lower the gain in the screen driving LR out?
    if not then you would need to lower the fader on the LR main out.

    most of us would kill to have your problem.
    We can barely get our loudness up high enough before feedback blasts us back to reality.

    now on a side note:
    when people complain about too loud they mean the music was too loud
    and when they complain about too soft they mean the person talking was too low
    then you may need to use compression to lower the DR to please them all better.

    #99191
    Profile photo of michaelc
    michaelc
    Participant

    The overall sound they are telling me it is too loud. I have added a 4;1 compression with gain of 6. Was told by the people who installed our system that most digital consoles with vocals and speaking should be set around -12 on meter but Allen and Heath it is at 0. So when I try to get the pafl up to around 0 then pull fader up it is very loud. So with digital the faders for mains or channel does not have to be hitting at unity. So the preamp is to increase the signal at line level and the fader is control the sound in house regardless where it is on the channel?

    #99194
    Profile photo of SteffenR
    SteffenR
    Participant

    forget the numbers, just turn it down… start with the outputs

    #99203
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @michaelc

    stop pushing the faders up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    push them down

    forget whatever you think you know or what you think that dealer said and just turn the gain down or lower the faders when the audience says it is too loud

    have you measured it with an SPL meter?

    if this is a church you want the max to be 85dB SPL and the minimum will depend on the HVAC noise

    #99215
    Profile photo of michaelc
    michaelc
    Participant

    We had practice last night and set everyone to around 0 on the meter and the faders are not at unity when I bring them up? The mains set around -5. The pastor’s mic I can get preachers mic metering 0 put when you pull the fader up echoing sound an loud. Would the eq help with that? Also on the wirless mics where should the gain know be on the mic reciever. I noticed last night they were at 50% 75 and wide open.

    #99217
    Profile photo of Hugh
    Hugh
    Participant

    A&H needs to issue a mandatory read for all new digital console owners called “Gain Staging for DUMMIES”: Until a mixer understands the critical importance of adherence to a strict gain staging protocol efficient operation is virtually impossible.

    1) Once you have mastered the process of dialing in a single channel, from that point on it is clearly a matter of repetition.
    2) It is also an important consideration to have a clear understanding of the operational limits of FOH stacks and stage wedges: If the console is appropriately dialed in then the next step is to calibrate the FOH and wedges.

    I in no way mean these remarks as a put down for anyone, however it is a bit ridiculous to seriously attempt to respond to an op that has no clue pursuant to the task at hand!
    Hugh

    #99219
    Profile photo of KeithJ A&H
    KeithJ A&H
    Moderator

    @michaelc ,

    Whilst we wouldn’t really comment on the art of mixing, we do have some technical information here which may be useful.
    http://support.allen-heath.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/levels-and-metering-in-qu-and-sq

    Thanks,
    Keith.

    #99220
    Profile photo of Mr-B
    Mr-B
    Participant

    Might I suggest that you sort out some proper training for this, a complete back to basics approach and not just console specific.
    Covering each section of the mixer in a logical fashion should pay dividends. It really does not matter if this is an analogue or a digital cosole, the process is broadly the same.
    There are a number of good books which cover these and other useful PA related issues if you can’t get personal tuition at the moment due to the current pandemic restrictions.

    #99226
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @keithJ A&H

    Could AH provide a cross referenced index of all those good links you pull out of someplace.

    What @michaelc described has nothing to do with mixing. It is sound level.
    If his problem is mixing he sure did not describe anything about that problem.
    Presuming @michaelc is just a new volounteer at a church and not a troll, he needs a simple introduction overview executive summary level description of reality. Apparently he thinks the dealer told him something and he is stuck on doing that even when it is causing his problem.

    @Hugh
    considering the number of new or volounteer users of their gear at churches it would be useful if they would write up a short paper of WHAT ALL needs to be understood/learned before using their mixers. Then point to a number of good books on each topic.

    @mr-b
    @michaelc does need to learn more. But who has a SIMPLE overview executive summarylevel document/book that does thatz?
    Most books are way too detailed for his needs, and most ramble on with too many other topics he does not need to know.
    So, what is the best book for a new volounteer to learn the minimum they need to be aware of?

    #99232
    Profile photo of KeithJ A&H
    KeithJ A&H
    Moderator

    @volounteer ,

    This and many other links that I’ve posted are to articles on the knowledgebase – http://support.allen-heath.com/default/Knowledgebase/List
    My comment on mixing was only because use of compression and some setup ‘choices’ are in a grey area – many would agree that setup of gain staging and initial levels are not part of mixing, but then I still sometimes see people advocating mixing with preamp gain. As someone very wise once said to me ‘if you were supposed to mix level with preamp gain, all the faders would be at the top!’.
    There is also confusion with the term ‘gain’ (re: preamp gain) and gain stages – you could be blending levels with faders which would be mixing for example and technically you are changing a gain stage.

    Book-wise, ‘Basic Live Sound’ by Paul White (or at least under his name!) is probably a good starter for not being too technical or detailed.

    Cheers,
    Keith.

    #99239
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @KeithJ A&H

    My point was that a cross referenced index to the KB would make it a lot more useful to folks.
    You seem to keep coming up with things that I did not find when I looked at the KB.

    Perhaps a good glossary of all the terms would be good as many people use alternate words, or misuse them which is confusing.
    Not to mention translation or national/regional quirks in terminology.
    And perhaps a short concept document for all those volounteers and new users would also be good for AH to have and give to new users.

    I have had cases where the faders were at the top and I had to mix with the screen knob tweaking gain.
    Happened when they passed a wireless mike around the audience. Some folks held it at their waist and some ate it.
    Some folks talked loud but some whispered. Twisting that knob was faster and easier to get the SPL near normal.

    Thanks for the book suggestion. I will see if it could help any folks on our team to look at.

    Well it looks like a couple of chapters would be useful but most of it is not, at least for church volounteers.
    The price was good though!

    This one looks a bit more on target for the OP

    #99245
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    @michaelc

    Where are you located?

    Do some reading but I think you would be best off to look at bringing
    someone in to give your system a once over and then some hands on training
    with the mixer.

    Maybe a training session with nothing else going on and then a follow up
    session during band practice and or during a service.

    Now finding the right person who actually knows what their doing for the training and system look over can be tough.

    For starting out 8 months ago it sounds like you were kind of thrown into without a lot
    help and a SQ is lot of mixer to start of cold with.

    #99246
    Profile photo of tourtelot
    tourtelot
    Participant

    Why is it up to A&H to teach people how to be audio engineers? People who want to learn the craft will do so. People who don’t care to learn will flounder. Darwinism.

    D.

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