dum ? Pre gain – SM58 – Not loud

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This topic contains 24 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of deeps deeps 5 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #51069
    Profile photo of Andreas
    Andreas
    Moderator

    Nice point, George! Maybe indeed adding a few (1..5) mSec delay into the singer’s wedge would change things, at least moves the peaks and notches around.
    …ducking away… 😉

    #51070
    Profile photo of Mr-B
    Mr-B
    Participant

    In truth though every time the singer moved even fractionally the time differential would change and along with it phase and frequencies affected. You can always make the stage louder but the law of diminishing returns jumps on you. The old “can we have everything louder than everything else” comment whilst amusing does not help.
    Every thing on stage goes down in level until the singer can hear himself or he goes onto in ears seems the only viable option to me.
    Ian B.

    #51071
    Profile photo of Dick Rees
    Dick Rees
    Participant

    The great thing about iPad control is that you can stand right with the “artiste” and hear essentially what they’re hearing…or SHOULD be hearing.

    Things like complimentary EQ between the voice and any other content of the Mix, delay, EQ/HPF and such can then be understood from the user standpoint. Building the Mix and then adding the other instruments one by one to identify any gross conflicts between on-stage sources and wedges is also handy…as can be delaying the mains if necessary.

    It’s a big canvas. Selecting your colors and applying them in complimentary fashion is the art. If the user is deaf or just dumb it will be obvious and it’s THEIR problem.

    You’ve done your best.

    #51073
    Profile photo of deeps
    deeps
    Participant

    I have a few shure IEM but he complains that his ears get hot with it. IEM is the easiest way and looks neater
    If you delay the monitor as suggested will it not confuse him even more?
    On the first day we gave the bands access via their iphones to control their monitors and that was my mistake as the singer just cranked it up.
    Did i mention he wanted effects in his monitor and not just a little he wanted to hear how his voice sounds in foh
    They had 900 people in attendance and after the first few lines of people the attendees enjoyed the sound

    However Im still not happy with the effects on the vocals I used which was comp, gated reveb and reverb + echo

    Anyways Im glad its Monday and Im over with these guys.

    #51074
    Profile photo of [XAP]Bob
    [XAP]Bob
    Participant

    He doesn’t need to hear how his voice sounds out front – and I’d never give a musician control over a wedge!

    There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of foldback – that’s what needs to change first…

    #51082
    Profile photo of Andreas
    Andreas
    Moderator

    If you delay the monitor as suggested will it not confuse him even more?

    IF you decide to try adding little delay to the vocal monitor to deal with potential comb filtering, it needs to be inside the very low mSec range which has a similar effect like stepping little further away from the wedge (in terms of latency) which should not be an issue (3m/10ft ~10mSec). But as Mr-B said, this only shifts the problem frequencies around and may not be a cure at all. But since digital desks do add monitor latency within the mSec range (1.2mSec on the Qu for local ports, probably more via dSnake), analog/digital should make a difference here.
    I never tried such and probably never thought about it, but if comb filtering is part of the problem (as George indicated), it may change things (to the better or worse).

    #51083
    Profile photo of GCumbee
    GCumbee
    Participant

    Our ears also have built in compression of sorts. A protection mechanism. As a long time recording engineer I can attest to it. Mix for hours then take an hour break and come back and everything seems louder.

    I still think that when a singer sings especially when they are loud they cause their ears to start compressing or limiting to the point where they feel they constantly need more level. Another person can walk into the pattern and it will seem way to loud.

    #51084
    Profile photo of Mark Oakley
    Mark Oakley
    Participant

    I’m not sure if this is possible on a Qu, but on my iLive I run the monitor send after the EQ, but before the compressor. Compression is great out front, but most singers like to have their wedges dynamic: if they sing louder the wedge should get louder.

    -Mark

    #51094
    Profile photo of Oracle/Steve
    Oracle/Steve
    Participant

    I tell bands I work with they have a choice. They can have wedges at a reasonable level, and I’ll show them what that level is, or they must move to ears. There is no other choice. When a wedge gets too loud it starts bleeding into every mic on stage and just shoots the house mix all to he!! I’ll tell them if they don’t care what it sounds like to the audience they should go back to their garage and annoy their neighbors.

    I’ve just made the jump to digital…I started with a Shure VocalMaster system back in 1969 and learned this stuff the old fashioned way, but I tell you, this is one of the most difficult transitions I’ve had to make. You take for granted the analog simplicity of hearing something wrong and instinctively grabbing a knob to correct it. I thank heaven the band I work primarily with now is comfortable with ears…it makes things a lot easier! I play trumpet, sing backup, do lights, and run sound, all from stage, so I’m kept pretty busy!

    #51109
    Profile photo of deeps
    deeps
    Participant

    thanks for the advice guys 🙂

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