CQ and Midi Controllers

[BobbyDazzler59]

Hi,
Looking for like minded/similar goals as follows.

Im in the process of connecting a hardware midi mix controller to a CQ20B to be precise but I guess any findings will suit any CQ range devices with alterations.

I gave been in comms this week with Luke at A&H to get an idea whats needed etc and have explored other avenues.

So the CQ will not connect directly with “Normal” midi equipment without some interception as the CQ uses a slightly different midi protocol.

Thus I have explored the only option I can find so far down the avenue of Bome Midi Translator Pro ( trial version to start with before paying out of course, 20 min time slots for now.

Hardware is Akai MidiMix, a windows laptop and the CQ 20b of course, plus the usual 2 connected devices for control screens.

The Midi Mix and CQ are connected to a powered USB hub and the master lead of the hub is connected to the laptop.

Running various midi monitoring apps, the Midimix and the CQ are visable on Mdi so thats a working check.

Firing up Translator Pro, both devices are visible and in the Pro you can create both as input and output, handy as the MidiMix requires the same output message (Mute Button) returned to illuminate or extinguish the led status lamp etc. plus you can then feed back any activity from the CQ to the MidiMix lamps as in Mutes on/off etc.

This then requires a fair amount of Bome programming for a final solution but for now Im doing smal functions trial and error.

Mute buttons are pretty simple function as is but its when you create 8 of them then wish to change to any of the three banks of 8 needed, it becomes heavy and cumbersome, so have not figured a full working solution as yet.

Sliders are different, its in the form of an address then MSB LSB message, I have figured out the workings but its that evergreen issue with hardware and software controlling the same parameter(s), if you move the hardware, the software follows on screen, but move the screen slider and any non motorised slider ,as is the MidiMix, then there will be a differential. Im planning to experiment with conditional testing (Rules function) and the Get function on the CQ, kinda “ what is the current slider value”. By testing rules, I hope to eliminate and CQ slider alteration until the MidiMix slider value is equal to, then releasing the rules bypassnand allowing it to change the vale.
A pick up function if you like. Many hardware gizmos have full rotary controls, but those that do not such as my old Boss GT6 guitar board, the value is only “picked up” when the non full rotary pot equals the current value.
Opposite example is my Roland Juno DS 61 Synth, that has control sliders, 2 control the upper/lower parts of a split. Well they dont pick up, and often while playing I catch one with passing fingers and effectively mute one or both sounds as I keep them at zero.

Lots of things to experiment and develop and thought that there are others in the group having the same aims or similar.

Which ever way it goes, I have found out you cant do direct connect with controller to CQ, so you need to interface, for me I already have a laptop in the rig, so its running Bome as a background task eventuall. Otherwise it may mean the Bome box, but I have no experience or knowlege with that device.

Cheers.

[Robert]

I guess I’ll hop on this thread…

So, I have an actual HUI. It appears the CQ “speaks” the HUI protocol (as well as Mackie Control Protocol), so would connecting a CQ to a HUI just require a USB to MIDI converter (since HUIs have the old 5 pin DIN connectors)?

Or am I going to have to do HUI -> computer with translator software -> CQ?

[BobbyDazzler59]

hi Rob…its Rob….not knowing the acronym HUI….. but as far as I have figured so far and also read my postings last 24 hrs, the CQ according to comms with A&H, the CQ is “Passive” whatever that means. I have found doing actual practical experiments, and I have done quite a few in the last 5 years after integrating Setlist maker & iPad into my keyboard rig, this needing all sorts of midi knowhow learning/testing/analysing etc so Im not new to investigating from scratch.

The CQ uses a slightly different message to “normal midi control messages” thus, as far as Im aware, you need some form of translation between different devices as is my conclusions and available info so far.

I do run both Ableton in pc and my pref is Logic on my Mac, I have had a quick dabble transferring multi track recording from CQ to Logic as partnof my new purchase gear pounding, seeing whatbit can do etc, but have no further investigation into Daw control to CQ at this point.

Its always difficult actually answering questions about gear im not conversant with nor various acronyms and slang alike….BUT Im happy to share any findings over the next few…probably weeks as Im a busy soul still running my contractor business , but am cutting back to full retirement and more time for gig work, and music in general.

So in summary, and not quite understanding your query (Being very honest as always) Im sure you will need a form of translation between any of the devices as fat as actual control and not including file transfers of recordings nor the usual Mixpad control of your CQ.

My personal goal and then subject to efficient physicl operation is the hardware controller for quick tactile grab of volumes and group muting etc, whilst the touch screens are fine, they can be a little misfiring from time to time as I dont have the actual device screen that the 18 and 12 has…..

Regards,
Rob.

[BobbyDazzler59]

Attached is a pic of my prospective sound/PA rig which I operate next to my keyboard rig.
The case is a cutdown from the A&H GL24 24 channel pro desk I used with prev band, all analog of course. I built this custmo case with prewired add ons as you see now, only difference is removal of old Yamaha effects Rex 50 and install of the MidiMix. Midi mix and CQ are plugged into a powered usb hub, and the hub tail is connected to the laptop running Bome.

[BobbyDazzler59]

Sorry the pic did not upload due to fle size.
Anyway, I am making progress with Bome translator scripting. A steep learning curve as always with new gear and different (Syntax) of Bome.
Successful trials so far.
Fully working/linked Midimix slider control of the CQ20B including 3 banks of sliders, basically the entire CQ input of 24 channels including the USB and bluetooth audio, plus of course the master slider avail on all pages/banks.

Mute buttons. As some of you will know, pressing Midimix mute button in factory state, sends note on/off messages. To illuminate the led button indicator, you have to send back a note on message, 7f or 0 for on/off.
Again I have sucessfully scripted this in Bome translator but only the first bank/page to date and am now working on expanding to three banks.

Then its on to full scripting controls with CQ interaction/readback functions such that a CQ screen/Mixpad button tap, will illuminatd the Midimix etc.

Of course I have no doubt the scriot can be modified for ither CQ models and other standard CC messenging Midi controllers once I get there. Text will have adequate info text, log messenging etc to assist with that.

[BobbyDazzler59]

Oh yes, I looked it up….Human User Interface protocol HUI…..

Anyway, everything on the interfacing, control, and any translations are dependant on each item in the chain. The best way forward is to first understand the device output/input format for example B0 63 00 B0 62 00 B0 06 00 B0 26 00 is what I call 4 byte message from/to the CQ, first 2 bytes are the CQ address of the control, slider, button etc second 2 are the value of said control. In the case of channel 1 mute which this code is if memory from last nite serves me well, is simply a 1 or 0, where as the high definition sliders are 2 midi byte msb/lsb values, although with my experimenting, I found the first byte/msb to be the main value counter and tge second lsb is more tiny increments, which using a hardware control slider, is basically ignored. I found very sufficient control at full slider travel.

This is where the translator is an unavoidable piece of the puzzle in many instances as Im now beginning to realise.

[KeithJ A&H]

Hi all,

The CQ uses standard MIDI messages as per the MIDI specification.
I think by ‘normal MIDI control messages’, @BobbyDazzler59 is referring to CC messages. These use 1 byte to identify the parameter and 1 byte for the value.
This provides control for up to 128 parameters and 128 possible values (because MIDI is 7bit).

The CQ uses NRPN messages, which use 2 bytes for the parameter number (to enable control for up to 128×128=16384 parameters) and also up to 2 bytes for the value (again, 16384 possible values).
This is necessary because for example with the CQ-20B, you have 20 inputs + 4 FX to send to Main LR + 6 Outs = 168 required controls, and that’s just the send levels.
On a higher channel count mixer like SQ, there are way more, and we’ve used the same protocol for both to enable people to build/program for both at the same time.

As it’s not been mentioned in this thread, the CQ MIDI Protocol doc contains far more detail along with examples of messages and can be found here – https://www.allen-heath.com/content/uploads/2024/06/CQ_MIDI_Protocol_V1_2_0_iss2.pdf.

If you’re just needing to control some levels and mutes, and usually work with CC and note on/off messages – the easiest method is the CC Translator option in the A&H MIDI Control app (https://www.allen-heath.com/hardware/controllers/midi-control/). This translates CC messages on the computer side to and from NRPN messages on the mixer side. There’s more info and examples in the help document for the app.

The Bomebox does require more programming, but is by far the best standalone option, being that it can manage a network MIDI connection to the mixer (or multiple mixers) as well as route MIDI between the mixer and almost any device via 5 pin DIN, USB or over a network. On top of this, you can create translation files in Bome MIDI Translator Pro to do exactly what you need and then load these into the Bomebox.

Thanks,
Keith.

[BobbyDazzler59]

Hi @KeithJ A&H . Thank you for more detailed info, I have picked up most of that info along the way last 3 weeks since firmware upgrade and experimenting. I just dont remember all the details and am general messenging.
I have been dealing with Luke thru the usual help ticket system to find the solution for actual hardware control, not controlling via DAW solution etc. hence the Bome translator fix as suggested by yourselves.

I am getting much closer now to a final outcome but still a lot of trials first. I have the Akai Midimix talking to the CQ with the mute button indicator led functions triggering back etc, and have managed Bank control of the three main input sliders ( banks of 8 X3 )
With all that under my belt, its now figuring the tidiest set of logistics from power up initiating to on the fly live mixing via the hardware controller in tandem with Mixpad.
First routine now is to fire up Bome translator, reading the status of all the CQ mutes ( from my usual gig shutdown/offstage muting etc. and assigning a set of variables as 1 or 0 (On/Off), using the get command code/addressing then using the CQ fired output as a trigger for the next translator within a Preset list. i have now acheived this BUT did encounter an error creating the variable sequential list from the sequential mutes 00 to xx etc. IF you have 2 channels paired for stereo, the second (Even no) channel of that pair is not accessible, so the translator routine fails at that Mute number, it has to be skipped therfore in the script, which makes that show dependant rather than universal.

Once I have that licked, its then about transferring the mute values to the led indicators of the current bank of the hardware controller, or changing to a second or third bank, OR just setting up as a preset controller of say, my main mix screen following soundchecks/setup etc. which is something I have to decide on.
Unfortunately as I know, there is no midi messaging from the CQ on screen changes, thus I cannot sync the hardware sliders with each displayed screen just to complicate things further of course

My final challenge is to then create a routine to read the fader channel thats tied to the hardware controller channel as it moves (triggers), compare the values, and only “Pick up” the CQ value from the hardware controller when equal, thus preventing the CQ slider value jumping to that of the hardware position, mainly because I can adjust from either but do not have the luxury of motorised controls to mirror any CQ adjustments and so on…..

So please excuse my shortcoming on correct terminology as its a very steep learning curve at my end as always, based on a need to do it.

Indo hope I have some success and plan to share my findings and coding in due course for others to benefit from.

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