Change order of Eq and Compress

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This topic contains 106 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of fixurscontractor fixurscontractor 2 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 107 total)
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  • #93664
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
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    @mikec
    $Mfk0815

    The filter I recall, which I suggested for my previous church to use, monitored the frequencies in use and notched whatever ones were triggering feedback at that moment. They changed/adapted in RT as needed.

    #93672
    Profile photo of Mfk0815
    Mfk0815
    Participant

    It is clear how automatic feedback suppression works. Nevertheless I dont like it. One reason is that you can find that frequencies manually too, especially in static systems. The second is that this algorithm cannot distinguish between a real, unwanted feedback and a longer tone from an instrument. This algorithm has no musical sense. It is like AMM. They are more or less worthless for musical program. No automatic system will replace a well educated sound engineer with trained ears.
    You can compare it with cars. All that automatic gear, ABS, traction control and so on will not help if there is an untrained person on the drivers seat. First you have to know how the physics works before you can try to find the limits. Automatic systems can fail and then the person on the desk is in more trouble as without them if this person in not well educated. Thats it.

    #93673
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mfk0815

    does not matter whether tone or freq or something else if that puts the system into feedback

    WHEN there is feedback the system EQs out that frequency
    you could certainly design it to return to flat slowly if you did not want to keep that EQ active

    not using automatic feedback killer would not stop the system from squealing whether tone or other freq causing it
    so the choice is automatic feedback killer or just pull down the faders when it happens and hope it is safe to slide them back up

    of course the experts here would have rung out the room and EQed the mikes and done sound checks to ensure feedback would never be possible no matter what.

    but for small venues with less experienced operators AFK is useful

    #93675
    Profile photo of Mfk0815
    Mfk0815
    Participant

    Hmm, in fact such devices do not EQs out the feedback frequency WHEN there is a feedback but rather AFTER the feedback starts. It needs some response time. Depending of this response time the feedback can be really painful.
    But as I said „I dont like such devices“. So do what you want and be happy.

    #93676
    Profile photo of Mfk0815
    Mfk0815
    Participant

    …and do not forget that if you tell „less experienced operators“ that there is an automatic device which will compensate operation errors ( which is in fact one of the intentions behind such devices) they will feel free to do operation errors.
    My approach is more that I use good sounding components which fits the needs, place them carefully, tune the EQ of the system to eliminate remaining problems of room (if required), use good microphones, EQ them carefully, use carefully some dynamics, only if required. And thats it. Thes simple steps brought me success over decades, so I dont think that I will change that strategy.

    #93693
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mfk0815

    Strange.
    My UPS blocks transients so my pc never blinks.
    A good servo control of feedback should stop it dead so fast that nobody could even hear anything.

    Moreover, a properly designed auto feedback killer would let you set a level under the feedback trigger point that it would maintain as the highest the signal could reach. So not even the risk of a tiny click when the feedback would have happened because it would never happen at all. In short it stops the feedback BEFORE the problem happens, not afterwards.

    Like it or not, sooner not later, mixers will have AI built in that not only fix feedback issues BEFORE they happen, but will automatically adjust the entire show based on how you describe you would like it to sound. Your job will be limited to setting up, tearing down, and maybe turning on the power switch too.

    #93696
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    A good servo control of feedback should stop it dead so fast that nobody could even hear anything.

    None of the feedback killer units or software can tell the difference between
    feedback and a sustained note on a guitar, horn, keyboard ect.
    They just look for a peak in the audio spectrum that jumps up over the base line average level, they digitally identify the frequency and apply cut at that frequency.
    They first have to see/hear the peak frequency before they can do anything about it, leaving everyone hearing feedback till it may get reduced.

    A good operator can almost sense feedback before it starts and take care of it before
    anyone notices, short of someone sticking a mic right into a stage monitor!!

    Feedback killers are nothing new, Altec Lansing had one in the early 70’s designed for
    speech reinforcement systems that would shift the feedback frequency a few hz in an attempt to eliminate it, analog by the way.

    #93699
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mikec

    You can believe that. Perhaps the ones you have seen have that flaw.
    It *IS* possible to architect design and build an auto feedback killer withOUT that defect.

    I have seen feedback the instant someone flipped a switch or pushed a button.
    Good luck with any operator sensing that.

    I have seen feedback situations where short of a panic button there is no way it can be stopped quickly short of power off.

    Feedback killers may not be new but new ones should be far better than the ones folks here seem to think act like all of them.

    #93701
    Profile photo of MarkPAman
    MarkPAman
    Participant

    Can you give an example of these modern feedback eliminators That work so well please?

    I’d love to try one.

    #93703
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    I have seen feedback the instant someone flipped a switch or pushed a button.
    Good luck with any operator sensing that.

    True, like if someone disengages a 30db pad switch or like my example someone sticking a mic into a monitor, those are what test your reflex skills in hitting the right mute button.

    It *IS* possible to architect design and build an auto feedback killer withOUT that defect.

    NOT A CHANCE…there is no way a feedback killer is going to know the difference between 440hz feedback or a horn player holding an A natural note.

    Maybe in post production software you could sample a burst of feedback and the software could scrub through the entire audio file looking what sounded like the sample, but that’s not going to happen in anything close to real time.

    You can believe that. Perhaps the ones you have seen have that flaw.
    It *IS* possible to architect design and build an auto feedback killer withOUT that defect.

    Lets look at this closer……The ones I have seen are like the ones everyone else here has seen either in a stand alone unit or as a function as part of a DSP.
    They all have some form of sensitivity adjustment, filter release times, live and locked filters and none are or will be smart enough to know the difference between music and feedback.

    You then say it “IS possible” to me that says none exist, have you seen one?
    Or is this yet another thing you have read about and talk about but have zero practical knowledge about?

    #93706
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mikec

    If you said you did not know how to design that auto feedback killer I would believe you.

    But if you claim it is not possible then you need proof not just assertions and claims or I will not believe you.

    This is something I know how to do. I have not done it yet. But not planning to do it either.
    No need to do it now and besides I am retired so not designing or building any more stuff.
    But digital allows almost magical things to be done easily. You just have to know how to do it.

    #93708
    Profile photo of MarkPAman
    MarkPAman
    Participant

    What a complete load of rubbish!

    #93709
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    This is something I know how to do. I have not done it yet. But not planning to do it either.
    No need to do it now and besides I am retired so not designing or building any more stuff.
    But digital allows almost magical things to be done easily. You just have to know how to do it.

    What a load of S***t.
    I hope everyone here gets a chance to read this before they even think of taking anything you post about as viable information.

    OK tell me what you have designed, built and patented that revolutionized the world of audio……waiting.

    #93711
    Profile photo of volounteer
    volounteer
    Participant

    @mikec

    insult noted.

    my designs were not in the field of audio
    they were computer oriented mostly data comms
    with focus on security

    tell us what you patented and sold

    #93712
    Profile photo of Mike C
    Mike C
    Participant

    tell us what you patented and sold

    Lots sold, no patents.

    Numerous speakers and sound systems

    Guitar effect routing system

    EQ and filter networks

    Ultrasonic range detector that a vision impaired person
    could clip on their belt and beep when an object got too close.

    Audio file players for kiosk displays that would play back when
    you stepped up to them.

    Various other one off problem solver custom projects through the years
    both electronic and mechanical.

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