Topic: To A&H : SoundGrid | Allen & Heath Digital Community

To A&H : SoundGrid

This topic has 40 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 10 months ago by Stealth.

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2011/04/10 at 2:43 am #27935

Tuejo
Participant

Hi.

I use the MX4 from SSL on a rack mounted desktop with madi I/O. I run it as rdp on the same Wifi as the editor and on the same mac. Quite nice. Anyways – I have around 69 samples of roundtrip latency inclusive plugin process time.

2011/04/10 at 5:50 am #27937

millst
Participant

Who says that 3ms is the maximum acceptable for musicians?
All of the published research I have seen suggests anything up to 10ms is imperceptible and that even the most highly trained ears could not detect below 8ms.

I still have to question why this type of outboard processing would be required on a small venue stage. On a large stage perhaps, but on a large stage a much higher tolerance for latency is acceptable due to the inherent acoustic latency on the stage anyway.

If you’re operating in a small venue and you need to rely on external eq and compressor plugins to solve your audio problems over and above what is available on the ilive then I’d suggest your doing something very wrong or the artist is a particularly poor performer that even external plugins are unlikely to solve.

I remember in my younger days playing a trick on an artist I was good friends with during sound check and putting a delay on his vocal mic. I got it all the way up to 18ms before he started to trip up and it was 35ms before he looked at me and started thinking I was doing something funny.

I personally think the problem is being overstated and the technology probably being applied in the wrong circumstances or just for the sake of technology in this case.
Perhaps I’m just a little old school though and tend to keep things simple and clean.

2011/04/10 at 9:57 pm #27943

SteffenR
Participant

@millst
I think you are not really wrong…

SRV-AVB
R-72, iDR-16, xDR-16

2011/04/10 at 10:02 pm #27944

SteffenR
Participant

quote:

Originally posted by woutert

I’m really glad that focusrite joined forces with Audinate,
I simply don’t want any more proprietary protocols and closed standards… at least Dante offers a standard Asio driver so you are free to choose which ever software or plugins or whatever you like to use, not just waves stuff however good it may be. Other than that I really expect Dante to keep up with developments from other companies… maybe they should start talking to Waves to help them created a Waves over Dante server for instance, since we only have one port B

Now if Waves manages to get the round-trip latency under 1ms using standard Ethernet ports, other audio-over-ethernet providers should really be able to do the same by also customizing Linux for this purpose. Things would indeed get interesting with a generic VST-plugin server or so… any developers listening out there?

Audinates Dante is proprietary as well, same as Hypermac and Supermac.
The only audio over ethernet technology covering our needs that I believe is free is Ravenna.
But it’s very new, so only Lawo and Direct Out Technology are using it at this time.

Any news on that are welcome…

SRV-AVB
R-72, iDR-16, xDR-16

2011/04/11 at 7:43 am #27947

woutert
Participant

<blockquote id=”quote”><font size=”1″ face=”Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=”quote”>quote:<hr height=”1″ noshade id=”quote”>Originally posted by steffenromeiss
Audinates Dante is proprietary as well…
[/quote]

You are right. I actually meant that it’s not a proprietary layer 2 protocol but a layer 3 protocol (like Ravenna) and they do offer the possibility to integrate with just any audio-soft via their standard soundcard interfaces, unlike Soundgrid that only integrates with their own software (to my knowledge, correct me if I’m wrong).

Update on 21/11: Waves now also have a “SG Driver” which can be used as a standard ASIO driver for Soundgrid. This is no longer a sole advantage for Dante.

I would welcome anything that’s more open standard yet offering the same performance or better I would suppose that AVB will become this standard?

Wouter

Conclusion so far: unless you own a dedicated set-up with ultralow latency (like soundgrid server) better don’t use outboard plugins as inserts in an IEM channel yet…

references:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet#cite_note-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging

Interesting document about latency in live sound monitoring:
https://www.jboley.com/research/AES_Latency.pdf

2011/04/11 at 3:32 pm #27951

Tuejo
Participant

@ Millst.

You can get away with a lot. Latency above 3 ms has proven to be a problem when singing with in-ear monitoring for some… not all singers.

2011/04/17 at 8:12 am #28002

Anonymous
Inactive

At the risk of being boring, we’re extremely happy with our MADI set-up, which is the one described by Xvision:

“The only “acceptable” on paper seems to be MADI with an RME interface on the PC end” … although we use Mac rather than PC.

In fact, I had to ADD latency through MainStage to make the Ivory piano samples feel real: they were coming back at the pianists too quickly, which was uncomfortable. That’s possibly because the musicians were used to latency in the previous MOTU-based system.

Seems to be two different starting points for discussions here: running sample sources and simply routing live mics through the system, and there being a problem with latency. These would appear to be incompatible scenarios. In any case, it’s NEVER going to be possible to compensate fully for the alignment of different sound sources; this is a problem known to church organists and other sound stages where musicians have to compensate continuously.

http://www.pianojam.nl

2011/11/18 at 3:37 pm #29022

RayS
Participant

https://www.allen-heath.com/UK/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=iLiveSeries&ProductId=MWAVES&SubCatId=AudioNetworkingOptions

RayS

R-72/iDR32/iPS10

2011/11/18 at 6:20 pm #29023

ddff_lv
Participant

Following the launch of the M-Waves option module for the iLive digital mixing system at Plasa, Allen & Heath and Waves are offering an interactive online webinar.

Aimed at engineers, rental companies, audio consultants and contractors, the event will provide information and understanding about the card and the SoundGrid technology. The sessions will start with an overview of the iLive product range, followed by a detailed discussion on installing the module and configuring Waves software. Also covered will be how SoundGrid can help with multitrack audio recording and playback during virtual soundcheck applications.

Hosted by Allen & Heath, two sessions are offered to suit your time zone. Experts from both Allen & Heath and Waves will be on hand to answer your questions.

Webinar Title: Waves plug-in processing, recording and playback with an iLive system

Date: Thursday, December 1, 2011

First session: 09:00 GMT/London, 10:00 Amsterdam/Paris/Rome, 16:00 Bangkok, 18:00 Tokyo, 20:00 Sydney

To reserve your webinar seat in this session click here

Second session: 17:00 GMT/London, 18:00 Amsterdam/Paris/Rome, 09:00 US/Pacific, 11:00 US/Central, 12:00 US/Eastern

To reserve your webinar seat in this session click here

After registering you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the Webinar.

Webinar System Requirements
PC-based attendees
Required: Windows® 7, Vista, XP or 2003 Server

Macintosh®-based attendees
Required: Mac OS® X 10.5 or newer

2011/11/19 at 3:25 am #29028

Anonymous
Inactive

quote:

You are dreaming if you think your ears are good enough to tell the difference between a signal delayed by just over half a meter.

That’s absolutely correct; there is a lot of BS talked about this kind of thing. Apart from anything else, live music with sound sources on a real stage are an awful lot more than 69cm apart, and with monitoring almost certainly not pointing the same direction as the FoH system, there is a lot of mish-mash of direct and indirect sound IRL. However, although it’s impossible to ‘hear’ the difference between sound delayed by 2 and 5ms, it is possible to ‘feel’ it in other ways: for example, I’ve introduced a 3ms delay into the piano sound being produced by Mainstage, through MADI, into our in-ears, because otherwise it felt like the keyboard was being played even before you pressed the key!

As a passive listener in a normal auditorium, I would not give much credit to anyone citing any meaningful effect in such a situation.

http://www.pianojam.nl

2011/11/20 at 9:13 pm #29065

Robert
Participant

Were was many posts some time ago about Waves card,there was told that waves card uses IPv6 raw protocol and its faster than Dante, i am already starting from this summer working with “Waves multirack” native,
I think (i have never calculated exactly how much latency total) its about 8ms seems to me, so i dont use it direct inserts only groups .
But the main thing that it works perfectly and stable with DANTE MacBookPro does all the bit cruncher job, also plays some loops from ‘Ableton Live’.
DANTE seems to have much more available options for connecting various devises between them, it’s more like analog is universal connector for everything so DANTE is mostly the same, also it has options for developers to integrate DANTE int to professional equipment.
Wawes of course has some privileges in plugin usage more useful for sound engineers.
I really think that they should standardize formats and release only one Ethernet based format we already have ETHERSOUND , ROCKNET, DANTE, COBRANET, SOUNDGRID, what else?

agutin.com
1x T80
2x iDR32
2 X M-MADI CARDS
2 X M DANTE CARDS
desktop+2x RME HDSP MADI
Macbook Pro,2x Macmini+DVS
T34-T80-T112-T144
evolution of SOVIET TANK

2011/11/23 at 8:52 am #29095

SteffenR
Participant

The new standard in Ethernet based audio transmission is already known as AVB.
Dante is one of the first implementations of particular technologies of this standard.
Audinate is saying that it will be AVB compatible in the future.
Waves uses the same principles as Audinate, so I guess it will be AVB compliant in the future as well.

Ethersound and Cobranet will not become compatible to AVB.
I don’t know about ACE, but it could be that it is close to AVB.

SRV-AVB
R-72, iDR-16, xDR-16, Dante

2011/11/25 at 4:10 pm #29037

Robert
Participant

steffenromeiss
please can you give some links to read about this standart AVB?

agutin.com
1x T80
2x iDR32
2 X M-MADI CARDS
2 X M DANTE CARDS
desktop+2x RME HDSP MADI
Macbook Pro,2x Macmini+DVS
T34-T80-T112-T144
evolution of SOVIET TANK

2011/11/25 at 4:16 pm #29039

ddff_lv
Participant

This seems to be clearest explanation: https://www.avnu.org/files/static_page_files/AADD5FA4-1D09-3519-AD240815A16F57DC/AVnu%20Pro__White%20Paper.pdf

2011/11/25 at 4:25 pm #29041

Robert
Participant

Thanks ddff_lv, one more question maybe you know were can i find materials about FIR filters and how apply them in crossover correctly.

agutin.com
1x T80
2x iDR32
2 X M-MADI CARDS
2 X M DANTE CARDS
desktop+2x RME HDSP MADI
Macbook Pro,2x Macmini+DVS
T34-T80-T112-T144
evolution of SOVIET TANK
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