Topic: Multicast, MixPad and Wireless. | Allen & Heath Digital Community

Multicast, MixPad and Wireless.

This topic contains 92 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by woutert 12 years, 8 months ago.

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2011/02/07 at 12:09 pm #22626

bucks
Participant

Hello All

Background

This is quite technical, but below is a brief discussion of “Multicast” and its use with MixPad.

Multicast is a way of delivering messages across a network.

In normal circumstances a single message is sent from one machine to another machine across a network. This is Unicast.

Multicast allows a single message from one machine to be sent to many machines on a network.

This is achieved by a router making copies of the original message and sending it to all interested parties.

A more detailed explanation can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast

This makes multicast very useful for media streaming across networks, and Allen & Heath’s MixPad app can use this technology to transfer metering data from a Mix Rack to an iPad.

How does this affect me?

With multicast enabled, the wireless router in your network has extra work to do.

This overhead can exceed the processing power of older or less capable wireless routers.

This can make your MixPad application slower to use, or in the worst case not work at all.

So why use it?

Multicast has many benefits.

With multicast off, if a connected MixPad suffers a sudden signal drop, I.E walking behind a pillar, the responsiveness of all other connected devices will suffer. You may notice your iLive Surface metering will slow down / stop momentarily. With multicast on this is not a problem.

Using Multicast also means your Mix Rack spends less time sending metering data, which gives it more time to handle extra connections. This makes Multicast a good choice if multiple MixPad’s are in use.

What Hardware should I use / how should it be configured?

There are many different makes and models of wireless routers available and testing them all would be difficult at best. Allen & Heath have tested the following wireless router, with the latest firmware available from the hardware manufacturer:

Belkin PLAY MAX N600 HD

Allen & Heath will continue to test additional models but the above works correctly with Editor and a MixPad both connected wirelessly to a Mix Rack, which also has a physical surface connected.

Other considerations when configuring your router should include physical positioning of the device to provide best coverage at your venue.

Avoiding interference with other wireless networks will also help ensure good quality of service. A discussion on channel selection and 2.4Ghz vs 5 Ghz frequency selection can be found here:
https://www.microsoft.com/athome/setup/wirelesstips.aspx

Need Extra Help

Please contact Allen & Heath technical support if you need additional information.

Andy
A&H

2011/02/08 at 1:11 am #27299

styler1982
Participant

Thanks for the breakdown.

I am curious if there are other features of this Belkin Router which attracted you all to it in the first place?

Primarily when I think of professional network equipment Belkin is near the bottom of my list, so I was wondering how you landed on it?

I have read some reports that people are having issues with Apple’s Bonjour service and this router. This worries me because bonjour is a multicast service as well. Obviously you are stating that you have tested this and it works well (this could also be a firmware issue on the other users parts) so I dont doubt you on that, just found it interesting.

Besides supporting multicast and having the power on board to deal with it effectively are there other specs we might look at in a router for better MixPad performance?

I have been using Apple Airport Extremes so far and seem to be getting really good results, as I am sure their multicast support is pretty strong considering Apple’s reliance on Bonjour for so much of its devices communications.

To that extent if there are multiple devices on the network broadcasting multicast signals can/will this bog down the routers?

Thanks again for the info and support you guys are amazing and I am loving the MixPad so far really makes things fun.

Stephen Tyler
Coordinator of Technical Operations
ACM@UCO
http://www.acm-uco.com
iLive T-112/iDR-32; T-80/iDR-16; iPhone; iPad

2011/02/08 at 10:05 am #27302

bucks
Participant

Hi Stephen,

Wireless routers seem to fall into 2 categories with respect to multicast traffic.

Type 1)
Most routers don’t really understand multicast and where to route it, so they just broadcast the traffic out of all ports simultaneously. This has a high overhead.

Type 2)
Does understand IP multicast, the standards to look for are IGMP V1 / V2. Every time a MixPad wants to start listening to multicast metering it “joins” a multicast group. IGMP compliant routers query and listen for group membership information and only send data to connections which need it. This lowers the overhead on the router.

From looking around the market there aren’t many Type 2 models out there. We’ve tested some that claim to be compliant, that actually have partial or broken implementations.

When you go and buy a new router, if it doesn’t mention IGMP or multicast, its probably a type 1. This is fine, but it needs to have enough horsepower to deal with replicating and sending all the metering traffic, and there is no standard for that!

Best advise is to look for a high end consumer unit that mentions media streaming.

If you want to go pro, you could give someone like Cisco sales a call but while most of their units I’m sure would cope with the traffic, most are not 802.11N, and you’ll pay double!

Perhaps someone could start a iPad hardware thread and share information about success and failure with different router hardware vendors ?

Hope this helps.

Andy
A&H

2011/02/08 at 10:56 am #27303

Biggsounds
Participant

I’m wondering if this one would suit?

Billion 7800N Wireless n Modem Router + Gigabit Switch : https://www.billion.com/product/wireless/BiPAC-7800N-11n-ADSL2-Broadband-Firewall-Router-Gigabit.html

I need to buy a new router anyway, just wondering how much I should spend (my old one, which has been doing fine, was a basic $100 consumer unit)

iDR32 mixrack
MixRack for iPad & Tweak for iPhone apps
Asus N61 Laptop (x2 wireless)
Sennheiser IEM (for PFL)
Dante card (soon!)

2011/02/08 at 11:19 am #27305

bucks
Participant

Hi Adam

I wish we could defiantly say yes or no.

The BiPAC 7800N has IGMP snooping, which is a half way house between Type 1 and Type 2.

To paraphrase, “it’ll listen to IGMP traffic, but someone else has to generate it”

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGMP_snooping

So without a full IGMP capable router also on your network, it’ll probably run as a Type 1, which means it’ll need a good turn of speed.

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers

Andy
A&H

2011/02/08 at 11:28 am #27306

Biggsounds
Participant

Right, it gets more complicated the further down the rabbit hole you go
Thanks for the info Andy, it gets good wraps overall and is definitely far better spec’d than my current router so I might give it a run unless anyone wants to suggest something they’re using that would be a better choice?

iDR32 mixrack
MixRack for iPad & Tweak for iPhone apps
Asus N61 Laptop (x2 wireless)
Sennheiser IEM (for PFL)
Dante card (soon!)

2011/02/09 at 12:33 am #27319

ceejay
Participant

Great information.
I use both the Airport Extreme “N” and also the Airport Express “N”.
Very good results on all shows. I MAC address the mix rack, surface, touch screen, laptop (both wireless and lan addresses). Also have the option of connecting my T112 and iDR48 wirelessly, (just in case). My multicast is turned off. I have musicians for a few bands I work with, that have iphones which are both mac addressed as well running the itweak app.
I think I am going to wait for the new ipad. The rumor mill is communicating a new faster processor.

CRJ
Oswego, IL

T112 Surface
iDR48 Mix Rack
Sony F Series laptop
Win 7 500GB HD 8G RAM
iPad 2 and Dante soon

2011/02/09 at 4:57 pm #27326

kentlowt
Participant

We use an Airport Extreme also without multicast currently. After an early issue that might have involved multicast back at 1.6 we turned it off.

112T/IDR48/IDR16

2011/02/09 at 5:01 pm #27327

woutert
Participant

I’m using a TP-Link TL-WR1043ND router with some TP Link TL-ANT2408C omni 8dBi antennas, and this really works great, also because these antennas easily attach to a mic stand as they have a strong magnetic base.

The user guide states:
“DTIM Interval – This value determines the interval of the Delivery Traffic Indication Message (DTIM). A DTIM field is a countdown field informing clients of the next window for listening to broadcast and multicast messages. When the Router has buffered broadcast or multicast messages for associated clients, it sends the next DTIM with a DTIM Interval value. You can specify the value between 1-255 Beacon Intervals. The default value is 1, which indicates the DTIM Interval is the same as Beacon Interval.”

The latest firmware release note explicitly states “Add IGMP support” so this seems to suggest that this router supports multicast.

Tonight I’ll check if my router shows these settings:
https://www.tp-link.com/support/showfaq.asp?id=121

Wouter

2011/02/09 at 8:56 pm #27330

ddff_lv
Participant

Any suggestions with some proper, 19″ rack mountable wireless routers?

2011/02/10 at 2:20 am #27334

ceejay
Participant

Last summer, I was searching for a rack mount wireless router. There are a few in the market that are “business class” but also pricey. Cisco was the only brand (I found) you could purchase a separate rack ear kit that works with certain models. Many of the brands available are built for home and or small office settings. If you find one, please let me know.

CRJ
Oswego, IL

T112 Surface
iDR48 Mix Rack
Sony F Series laptop
Win 7 500GB HD 8G RAM
iPad 2 and Dante soon

2011/02/10 at 10:13 pm #27353

ddff_lv
Participant

Well, there is a company called Teqsas- https://www.teqsas.de/index.php?id=160&L=1
Hope to get a quote. I’m already using their inclinometer- so callesd LapTeq.

ddff

2011/02/11 at 1:50 am #27357

ceejay
Participant

Thanks for sharing the link.
I went to the site and was looking for a spec sheet or a manual, and nothing was available but a sell sheet.
Not sure of the pricing, and you would think a company like Netgear etc, would offer something like this. Interesting.

CRJ
Oswego, IL

T112 Surface
iDR48 Mix Rack
Sony F Series laptop
Win 7 500GB HD 8G RAM
iPad 2 and Dante soon

2011/02/11 at 2:09 pm #27367

woutert
Participant

UPDATE: received new feedback, see post on the next page.

Jus received feedback from TP Link regarding IGMP and multicast: a bit confusing however:

“Sehr geehrter Herr Tilkin,

IGMP liegt in drei Versionen vor. Die benötigte Multicast Funktion gibt es nur in Version 3 von IGMP. Wenn Sie diese Funktion benötigen, um t-home entertain nutzen zu wollen,muss ich Ihnen leider mitteilen, dass dies nicht möglich ist.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Mostafa Aziz
Technical Support Engineer”

In English: they say that multicast is only supported from IGMP version 3, which is unlike what Andy tells us, a bit confusing.

Wouter
My prayers have been heard, Dante is coming!

2011/02/11 at 4:15 pm #27368

bucks
Participant

Hi Wouter,

I can’t explain their response.

I’ve just read the IGMP V3 Spec.

V3 is backwards compatible with V2 and V1.

But its the V1 spec that lays down the foundation for Multicast support.

V2 and V3 just add extra features.

Maybe they’re just telling you their device doesn’t do it yet, I.E they’re only partially complaint ?

Cheers

Andy
A&H
Author

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