Limiter on subgroup

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This topic contains 13 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of mrp123 mrp123 10 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #22566
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    Hi,

    I route a channel to a subgroup and route the subgroup to main. (channel is not routed directly to main ) . When I comp the subgroup i see and hear compression on the master. but when i limit the subgroup then i see limiting on the subgroup leds but i don’t hear limiting on the main. Why is that? You should think that if you engage limiting on a subgroup it should limit. Happens from version 1.70 on. Try it and be amazed [:D]

    Any reasons?

    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26890
    Profile photo of Stealth
    Stealth
    Moderator

    Hi Lieven

    This was a feature change in 1.70 firmware. This information is in the release notes:

    quote:


    Group to Main/Matrix source changed to Post-Delay. Requested by several users, the
    Group mix delay now affects its sends to the Main and Matrix mixes. Note that the Aux and
    Main mix to Matrix sends remain Pre-Delay.


    http://www.ilive-digital.com/downloads/Release%20Notes%20iLive%20firmware%201.71.pdf

    Regards
    Sam A&H

    #26892
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    Sam,

    Your quote explains the routing for delay but i am talking about limiting. I see in the release notes that mix limiter changed to post fader so the limiter follows the fader. But my faders were all about zero and there was no limiting. Let me explain what i tested.
    cd on an input fader on zero normal level readings on input. input routed to stereo group, stereo group routed to main. Now if i engage limit on the master or input and a fully limit i see and hear limiting. if i engage compression on subgroup and compress fully i see and hear compression. But if i engage limit on the subgroup and fully limit i see limit on the leds i hear limit when i press limit select button on my R72 screen but i don’t hear limit on the main.
    So when limiting is post fader and al my faders are about zero i should hear limiting on the main? And why do i hear the compression but not the limiting?
    Final question. How can i limit a group? (brass section ) Not that i ever want to do that but it was a BE who asked why the group did not limit even if the screen indicates limiting. very confusing. If it is not possible to limit a group it should be removed from the group screen

    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26894
    Profile photo of selfmade
    selfmade
    Participant

    short question…how do you hear the main mix?
    via headphone or PA?

    bcause it´s possible that the listening point is pre fader/pre limiter at the output mixes

    greetings from hamburg

    #26895
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    selfmade,

    I don’t hear limiting through headphones and mains. what puzzles me is that when i listen to the limiter section( when pressing select button) i actually hear the limiting on the subgroup, so it’s there.

    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26896
    Profile photo of KB7981
    KB7981
    Participant

    Is it that the limiting is only affecting a subgroup output as if you were sending it out to a multitrack recorder?

    Kris
    Indiana, USA

    #26897
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by KB7981

    Is it that the limiting is only affecting a subgroup output as if you were sending it out to a multitrack recorder?

    Kris
    Indiana, USA


    Kris,
    It should not make any difference if i am sending the output of the group to a matrix or the mains or whatever.
    Is it possible that someone tests this just to be sure that i don’t forget something stupid[:I]

    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26898
    Profile photo of ryanlantzy
    ryanlantzy
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Lieven Dewispelaere

    quote:


    Originally posted by KB7981

    Is it that the limiting is only affecting a subgroup output as if you were sending it out to a multitrack recorder?

    Kris
    Indiana, USA


    Kris,
    It should not make any difference if i am sending the output of the group to a matrix or the mains or whatever.
    Is it possible that someone tests this just to be sure that i don’t forget something stupid[:I]

    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver


    I haven’t tested this, but my guess is that the pick-off point for a Group to the Main Mix or to a Group out are different.

    If it is that way, I think it’s silly.

    #26901
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    HI,

    I looked at the system block diagram and limiter is after delay so indeed no limiter if you route to main. should the limiter not be disabled in that case?
    If I was a BE and i limit the hell out of a group but couldn’t hear it in the main mix i would think something is broken[:0]. So for happened only once because using limiter on a subgroup is not common to do.

    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26908
    Profile photo of antonyja
    antonyja
    Participant

    Groups can be routed to Auxes. These can be either pre or post fade. thus the routed signal to auxes and mains is taken before the fader, and if post fade aux or mains then the position of the group fader is taken into account when calculating the crosspoint gain. We moved the limiter to post fade position so that it can be used properly as a protection limiter i.e. no gain can be added to the signal post limiter. If the group is routed to an output then the limiter is in the path, so it would not be good to remove it from the screen.

    Antony Jackson
    Software Manager
    Allen & Heath Limited

    #26909
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    Antony,
    quote:
    and if post fade aux or mains then the position of the group fader is taken into account when calculating the crosspoint gain. We moved the limiter to post fade position so that it can be used properly as a protection limiter i.e. no gain can be added to the signal post limiter.
    end quote
    So if i take the signal from the group poste fader the limiter would be in the path?

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26910
    Profile photo of antonyja
    antonyja
    Participant

    quote:


    So if i take the signal from the group poste fader the limiter would be in the path?


    No – the group can be routed to pre-fade auxes as well, thus the signal available to the auxes (pre or post), and the mains, is the pre fade signal, and thus pre limiter.

    HTH

    Antony Jackson
    Software Manager
    Allen & Heath Limited

    #26912
    Profile photo of Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Lieven-Dewispelaere
    Participant

    Thanks, i understand now. Still think its not a good solution( maby the only one possible ).There can/will be confusion for BE’s (Yes sir i see the limiter, and it is limiting but you can’t use it [:(])

    Regards
    Lieven

    T112/IDR48/R72/IDR16
    Save a tree, eat a beaver

    #26914
    Profile photo of mrp123
    mrp123
    Participant

    I agree with Lieven. I also was confused by this apparent “problem”. My routing is different, but my confusion was the same. I’m using firmware 1.70.

    I apply limiting to an aux bus. That aux feeds remote speakers that are inaccessible to me (don’t ask why…). I can only hear the signal fed to those speakers using PAFL. However, I never could hear via PAFL the limiting on that aux though the surface showed heavy limiting. I became more concerned when I routed this aux to a matrix and I still couldn’t hear limiting anywhere on that matrix though the aux showed heavy limiting.

    This situation results in a “trick” the user must remember. The user must remember they either cannot use a limiter within routing though it appears to be available, or cannot trust their ears to set limiting without somehow monitoring the analog output directly, which may or may not be practical, or remember the only way to PAFL the limited signal is to hold the SEL button within the limiting section. Without this foreknowledge, the user will be disappointed or sorely surprised because they believe they’re applying limiting and discover they’re really not, or conversely be frustrated because they cannot hear the effects of limiting though the surface is clearly announcing otherwise.

    A&H, can you somehow make it more apparent so the user may understand the limiter’s functionality, by way of the touchscreen and Editor for example?

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