ilive outboard insert latency/delay

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This topic contains 5 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of simonstpauli simonstpauli 11 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 6 posts - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
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  • #22262
    Profile photo of Oscar-Soderlund
    Oscar-Soderlund
    Participant

    Anybody can explain the insert latency or delay when using outboard inserts.
    Trying to use a master compression on L&R using a insert.
    And also trying to use additive comp on a group, without any good results.

    Is it so that it’s not possible?!

    Started out with trying to use the Waves Multirack, when there was latency no matter bitrate
    etc. I tried with analog units with about the same result.
    Any one else did inserting with outboards with a good result?
    Have I missed any settings, maybe.

    Best regards
    Oscar Soederlund

    Parashoot
    Sweden

    #25191
    Profile photo of Tuejo
    Tuejo
    Participant

    I had a look at the Waves Multirack when it came out and I remember wondering that it did not say anything about latency. In a native system as the Waves you will get more latency than from a dedicated DSP as the Ilive has. The soundcard you use introduces latency – even the firewire port has a “firewire buffer” that introduces latency. I my opinion any pc/mac based setup is not fast enough for live use. Some of the soundcard manufactores are talking a lot about their card for live use a talk about the low latency introduced from the card only and they ignore the total latency from the entire setup.

    There is a software that can messure total roundtrip latency (can´t remember the name but it is easy to google). More then 3 ms should not be used in in-ear monitors at all!! And best not used in any monitor situation. The tolerance for FoH are a bit higher but even there I wouldént use PC/MAC based solution.

    Note that the PCI express on a desktop runs faster and some TDM like based machines can run with latencys as low as a digital console.

    As for the group latancy I recommend you make a search on this forum since this has been covered already many times. Solutions on paralle compresion are comming from A&H – They have been asking about it and they usually listen to users.

    As for the mastercomp insert on FoH you should have no problems. You will get latency from the double AD-DA conversion. How is this a problem for you? You get about 34 cm delay on 1 ms – so 3 ms is only 1 meter – that hardly aligns the drums with PA. The bleed in on stage has more time diff then that.

    #25194
    Profile photo of simonstpauli
    simonstpauli
    Participant

    Oscar, did you use digital inserts?

    All analog inserts add DA/AD latency twice (desk-WaveRack DA/AD, WaveRack-desk DA/AD, several milliseconds). So this may be only usable for a master insert when you have to delay the PA anyway.

    In every way you get additional system (host computer system WaveRack itself) and plugin-latency. In the case of Waves plugins there is a chart here:
    http://www.wavesupport.net/content.aspx?id=2213

    When having some channels / channel groups on insert and others not you may have to compensate for the latency on the insert in order to avoid combing and/or delay effects in the mix.

    Christian Tepfer
    Hamburg, Germany

    #25196
    Profile photo of Oscar-Soderlund
    Oscar-Soderlund
    Participant

    Tuejo,
    The Waves support says that “there is no latency in Multirack” and put the blame on Apogee.
    Apogee says that it must have to do with the settings in the Multirack.

    If you watch the video posted on Waves page with Phish FOH Gary Brown @ http://www.waveslive.com/
    He is working with a lap top it looks like, explaining his use of the Multirack. using RME MadiFace.
    Is it because his in a 15000 cap arena where it must be impossible to tell a short delay in the master,
    when hitting a snare drum, so he doesn’t care.
    Or is working better because he is in digital all the way SD7-MADI-SD7
    I used SPDIF in and out on the T112 surface into a Apogee Ensemble, so still digital all the way.
    Then a Plug-in version of the MAXX BCL working the L&R.
    On a 1200 cap venue with FOH approx 20-25m out, it was not possible to close your eyes/ears to the fact
    that there was a delay on the drums.
    The difference from drums acoustic from stage then in the House was to big.
    Regarding additive comps on the ilive I will check the forum more.

    Parashoot
    Sweden

    #25197
    Profile photo of Oscar-Soderlund
    Oscar-Soderlund
    Participant

    Christian,

    I used CLA3 comp on Bass DI, and API pre-amp with CLA Bluey on Vocs,
    all on analog in/out at the surface.
    Then I used the RenComp-Renbass-L2 on the L&R using SPDIF.
    As for the analog I understand the AD-DA isn’t optimal.
    Sounded great at the rehearsals but then I was in a different room, away from the band.
    So I didn’t feel the delay/latency…
    Maybe I should try to put the master comp in serie, or send L&R out on SPDIF to the Audio card,
    then out to the House on analog, or digital
    A bit risky though, having a sound card and computer a your “end-of-the-line”
    If it went down you would have to re-patch a couple of things.
    I know the expression “when in digtal, stay digital…”
    But it would be cool, if it could work a little bit even

    Parashoot
    Sweden

    #25198
    Profile photo of simonstpauli
    simonstpauli
    Participant

    Of course Waves said they have no latency but this is only part of the story because the whole signal chain counts.

    Let’s work on s/p dif inserts only for the moment.
    Can you try to set the Apogee to 48kHz, 32 samples latency?

    Channel insert latency is severe when used on analog I/O, when you use an insert on bass DI and none on bass mic the result is bad. The same goes for sources present on more than one channel, snare drum etc.

    Christian Tepfer
    Hamburg, Germany

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