compression and de-essing after PEQ???

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of theWhiplash theWhiplash 9 years, 12 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 20 total)
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  • #22232
    Profile photo of furrom
    furrom
    Participant

    hey there, i’m currently working with an ls9-16 extened to 32ch via ADAT and thinking to moving to an ilive t112. there’s just a couple of questions i’d love experienced users to answer.

    1. i have a really weird feeling about compression being post eq. once i eq and changed the frequency content of my i/p signal, i wouldn’t like the compressor to alter my adjustments AGAIN.
    next issue…i often use de-essing on quite a few musical singers (even if the de-esser really sucks on the ls9)…de-essing is mainly changing frequency response around 7-9kHz…with the de-esser being post eq there’s no way in adding some corrective eq at the end of the chain.
    is there something to my thoughts or am i just being picky? how’s your experience with that signal flow in a live situation?

    2. in the LCR or LRSub mode i found the centre/sub bus being kinda awkward. it appears to be more of an aux bus than a conventional center/sub bus. there is the option of using a group for this application…but where’s the point in having an LCR/LRSub Mode then?

    3. that’s a quick one: where can i set up the bus routing in the offline editor?

    thanks in advance!
    niko

    Event Corp
    http://www.event-corp.at

    #25015
    Profile photo of Tuejo
    Tuejo
    Participant

    Merry Christmas.

    I will only comment on the signal chain. As for comp after EQ I can say this is normal and most used. If you comp before EQ you will have the comp reacting and working on materiel that you might not want in the end result. E.g. a accoustick guitar with a huge peak in 600 Hz making the comp go to minus 15 on the comp but you can not get it to threshold in the notes arround that 600 Hz area.

    You would want the acc to be nice to the ear and fairly even in response and THEN compresse the acc.

    Same goes for the Deesser. First you sort out the eq and comp. If it still runs of on the esses you can dees. True that it takes of hf and a compensation for that could be used. This can be done by going to a group that will give you yet another set of controls. I find one channelstrip plenty to reach the sound i wish.

    But as for the chain it is by the book.

    #25016
    Profile photo of sound
    sound
    Participant

    Niko,

    quote:


    1. i have a really weird feeling about compression being post eq.


    I agree with Tuejo on this. In addition I’m still using external Comps/DeEss for the money channels. This is *NOT* specific to the ILive compressor – haven’t heard a digital comp so far that comes near a good analog one.

    quote:


    where can i set up the bus routing in the offline editor?


    Right click is your friend [:)]

    Greetings,
    Walter

    #25017
    Profile photo of grahamwhite
    grahamwhite
    Participant

    i think the iLive compression is terrible. fair point that there arent any decent digital comps out there but i find the Digidesign smack comp nice, i find the M7 & 5D to be very workable and same goes for the midas comps.

    I always have outboard comps for the main channels on the ilive though. Even if its something simple like a DBX160

    I strongly believe that more attention needs to now be paid on the processing, this includes sidechain routing and i need to have more adjustment on the LPF’s on the outputs that go right down to 100hz.

    Merry Xmas all!

    GW

    #25019
    Profile photo of selfmade
    selfmade
    Participant

    i disagree with grahamwhite!

    i usually work ith analog board and equipment (midas,bss, drawmer…) and i have to say, that working with ilive is nearly the same feeling!
    for me the ilive is a perfect solution in the way to spear place and material at the foh.
    my generell question is, for what do you need a DBX160?!
    that´s far to much for live!

    in german we like to say:”perlen für die säue!”

    @forrum:
    2. i always feed extra buses by aux/group or matrix buses. i never use the factory settings for LCR or LR/Sub, for me it´s unuseful.
    3. you have a on/off button at the channel´s for asign grouping, if you press the MIX button at the group!
    1. if you want to change the signal-flow of the peripherie, send the signal through a group!
    than you can eq,compress and deess at different postion´s!

    #25020
    Profile photo of sound
    sound
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by selfmade

    my generell question is, for what do you need a DBX160?!
    that´s far to much for live!


    I like the sound of the ILive but the compressor is well below par, and the so called ‘Brickwall Limiter’ isn’t any better. But I’m confident that it will improve in the future. A&H developers did a great job so far – some issues took their time but still…

    Don’t know what kind of gigs you are doing but ‘…far too much for live’ sounds a little strange to me.

    Greetings,
    Walter

    #25021
    Profile photo of grahamwhite
    grahamwhite
    Participant

    @selfmade – The compression is nowhere near musical enough. If i am doing a conference or something unimportant then i will use the onboard comps. However for A-list artistes like Mariah Carey something this abrupt and harsh is not acceptable!

    I know digi compression does work ok, for instance Horace Ward is using everything onboard the Digidesign Profile FOH for the Beyonce tour …. zero outboard!

    And regarding using a DBX160 as “Far too much for live” – This is classed as one of the most basic, transparent sounding comps for the money, this is an obvious choice for a basic compressor for live…

    … given the choice i would much rather have a 160SL or XTA D2 but budget and supply in some of the backwards foreign counties i tour mean that this is not always possible.

    DBX160’s are like Starbucks coffee shops… you can easily find one in every city!

    I strongly think that the future of iLive is letting 3rd parties develop plugins and then being able to store them on an iLok key, of course there would have to be a cost involved but this cost would only be a fraction to that of actually buying a rack of classic outboard gear.

    Cheers
    Graham

    #25022
    Profile photo of selfmade
    selfmade
    Participant

    my fault…
    i confound the dbx160 with the dbx162!

    #25025
    Profile photo of GCC
    GCC
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by grahamwhite

    @selfmade – The compression is nowhere near musical enough. If i am doing a conference or something unimportant then i will use the onboard comps. However for A-list artistes like Mariah Carey something this abrupt and harsh is not acceptable!

    I know digi compression does work ok, for instance Horace Ward is using everything onboard the Digidesign Profile FOH for the Beyonce tour …. zero outboard!

    And regarding using a DBX160 as “Far too much for live” – This is classed as one of the most basic, transparent sounding comps for the money, this is an obvious choice for a basic compressor for live…

    … given the choice i would much rather have a 160SL or XTA D2 but budget and supply in some of the backwards foreign counties i tour mean that this is not always possible.

    DBX160’s are like Starbucks coffee shops… you can easily find one in every city!

    I strongly think that the future of iLive is letting 3rd parties develop plugins and then being able to store them on an iLok key, of course there would have to be a cost involved but this cost would only be a fraction to that of actually buying a rack of classic outboard gear.

    Cheers
    Graham


    It’s all up to choice and preference actually, iLive did make a good mixer in a ‘box’. We just installed it less than a month now and it sounds great! Of course we can install any outboard effects if we feel iLive cannot give what we want but overall we love the iLive. Have fun guys!![:D]

    #25028
    Profile photo of robc
    robc
    Participant

    I am sorry Graham isnt happy with the compressor in manual mode.

    In manual mode we have designed an efficent compressor with minimal distortion and pumping as requested. Its designed to react quickly to large gain reduction changes but not generate pumping and HF distortion like some digital compressors do. It should enable the engineer to create gain reduction and then wind in make up gain without artifacts or colouration – ‘default manual mode’ like an Amek RupertNeve 9098 and the dbx 286. This was the brief for the default manual mode, not a 160 sound or a bomb factory. We seem to have had a lot of positive feedback for this so far.

    Then in auto mode we have created some models (not enough i agree!)
    If you want an rms based sound similar to ‘160’ sound try the auto mode ‘tight rms’. If you want a compressor suited to vocal try the auto mode ‘vocal’.
    We have had some engineers not find the auto modes on the interface. maybe we need to change the interface for this ?

    Graham is right we need to create more models… and maybe some live guys want 160’s everywhere – certainly useful on percusion and bass.

    160 has been requested very regularly and although our tight rms is similar there are differences which I can look at for future software release.
    We are also interested in parallel compression to add some transient HF back into a heavy thick compressed sound.

    We will introduce more emulations in future, meanwhile please be patient and tell us what compressors you like.
    All feedback welcome.

    cheers
    robc

    #25038
    Profile photo of Tuejo
    Tuejo
    Participant

    Interesting. Robc are you telling us that the auto introduce different algorithems and not just a atack/release ratio preset? If this is so that the sound differs other than that could you release the type of comp with user set atack/release and ratio?

    A Clean/Vintage comp type select would be nice. As for comps I like. Waves Renaissance comp and for analog I love my Crane Song STC-8/M for clean sound the Avalon 2044 and for punch the SSL XLogic bus comp (or many of the good copies of that; winner in that category is the Danfield 726)

    Cheers. Tue

    #25044
    Profile photo of robc
    robc
    Participant

    Yes the auto modes disable the fixed manual attack release settings and the ballistics of the compressor are set purely by a programme dependant algorithm. The attack and release parameters are not simply set fixed to the value of attack and release user settings from manual mode. This would introduce distortion, modulation and/or pumping.
    The automodes provided have styles, changing the way the algorithm works. Vocal catches transients keeps distortion low for vocal range and attempts to prevent pumping. Tight rms speeds things up at the expense of distortion. But you can create tight fatter sounds on bass and percussion.

    Manual mode does also employ a distortion smoother too in the background, like most analog compressors. The goal as i explained was a smooth manual mode with minimal distortion that still catches transients. Not a particular musical sound. The auto modes do have character and we can extend these in future.

    Selecting an auto mode does NOT change the makeup gain or ratio or threshold it simple changes the way the compressor deals with attack and release.

    We have not thrown extended R&D so far at more models. The goal was to get the manual mode working as i described a transparent low distortion compressor thats still reacts quickly when needed.
    We did some auto modes to suit programme. We plan to develop this to emulate compressors you like in the future.
    Please try the auto modes and give us feedback.
    Also the screen histogram of the GR may help explain the ballistics.

    Also we are investigating the sc source selection for the future.

    thanks
    RobC

    #25045
    Profile photo of robc
    robc
    Participant

    Walter, your comment about the limiter.

    It wasnt designed as a brick wall limiter.
    A brick wall limiter will attempt to eliminate any overshoot above the threshold, using fast attack release times. This will introduce HF distortion. Or you can use look-ahead delay allowing the limiter to attack with gain reduction prior to the overshoot – at the expense of increasing signal latency through the mixer.

    Our brief from customers was an efficient limiter stage as well as a compressor. The limiter should protect level say for in ears on mixes or a source on an input channel. It should not introduce audible distortion when it limits but ensure that suitable level protection for the ear is performed. It is not suited to protecting speaker drivers from instant excursion etc. Thats for speaker processor limiters or for later processing options.

    Customers also wanted the limiter at lower thresholds to tend towards AGC. So if you set the threshold low say -10dB if will have the effect of reducing the fader for programme passages above there, and not clip the audio signal at -10dB – creating continuous distortion.
    Its designed to do these things.

    I would interested in how you want it to work and whether you use it for more severe limiter protection for speakers for future development.

    much thanks
    RobC

    #25047
    Profile photo of dnxmirrorsounds
    dnxmirrorsounds
    Participant

    Excellent info about the Auto modes. I usually choose manual because then I know what is being done, but now I know that there is other stuff under the hood with the auto modes, I’ll play with those.
    For reference compressors, my favourite transparent compressor is the Weiss but aren’t we getting into the realms of Sintefex and Liquid Channel stuff? Not that I mind. being able to run a vocal through a Millennia Media preamp, a Massive Passive EQ and a Fairchild compressor would be great.

    But seriously, what about a “character” setting with a couple of adjustments e.g. attack/ release; speed/amount etc. where character can be ‘vocal’, bass, music, perc, 160, LA2, fairchild, tubetech, Obliterate.

    BTW, ratios of less than 1:1 would be nice (like the Weiss) for situations where the received audio is messed up like in backing trax, and parallel compression is nice too.

    I have another idea but that should perhaps be another thread.

    Have fun,

    Duncan

    #25053
    Profile photo of ZiKE
    ZiKE
    Participant

    Hi all!
    Graham: you wrote, in few words, that dynamics in iLive are bad. So, please write me what parameters did you measure and where is the table which can tell us that below one value the compressor is bad and above another is perfect. I believe, that one would like sound of this part and other one wouldn’t. But this is subjective feeleing, not a measurable value.
    I work with iLive since it came to Poland and I like sound of their compressors – they do what they should – even with the signals given by polish musicians…
    BTW – I found a Starbucks in Warsaw, but I couldn’t find anything interesting me inside. I went to the other place.
    Cheers,
    ZiKE

    THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME

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